EvolutionFM Transcript: East Forest - How To Receive Divine Guidance And Creative Inspiration

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East Forest shares how music and psychedelics cracked open a deeper reality, reshaping his inner world forever. Raised with a materialist mindset, it was a single powerful mushroom journey that unveiled a hidden wellspring of fulfillment he didn’t know existed. He sees music not as performance but as pure transmission. He explores the war within modern creators-the resistance to doing the very thing that nourishes us most and the urgency of reclaiming stillness in an overstimulated world.

As AI threatens to drown out human authenticity, East is doubling down on what can’t be faked: presence, ritual, and the soul-touching power of live performance. He’s building a sanctuary for what’s real. And just as he prepares to take this medicine music around the world… the unraveling accelerates.

Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 1+ hour, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!

Scott Britton (00:00.879)

What's up everybody we have Krishna also known as East forest on the show today I'm excited for this conversation because some of the music that you've created has had a huge impact on myself and my wife. But maybe for people that aren't super familiar with your story, when did this intersection of music and kind of the inner explorations really come alive for you?

East Forest (00:02.456)

So growing up with my parents, I was someone who was a bit more of a materialist in a sense. And I just needed a strong experience to really shake out of things or show me something more was possible. So mushrooms did that for me and music. And I've just been exploring that space every, ever since. And not really just psychedelics. It's more just about, it was a very quick and fast experience of what life was.

about in a sense, or it's more about like all the things you strive for and you're reaching for in a sense in the background or in the forefront all the time, how really that's the pain or that was the distraction and that actually underneath it all, everything was okay. And more than okay. Like there was this fulfillment lurking in the background in a way that I was starting to realize is always there. And so once I,

Woke up to that. I think that's been the only game in town in a way. And I've been exploring it ever since.

Scott Britton (01:09.521)

What is is Ram Das's book who I know you've done some some amazing work on? The Only Dancer is.

East Forest (01:17.858)

Totally. Yeah. And he would, he had some lines around that, they're really powerful by like when, when you know that there's one game in town, something like that, that, you know, what else is there to do? And it's kind of true because it's the great meta game in a way that I think we're all reacting towards or against in the background, whether it's conscious or unconscious, you know, that there's this meta reality that we die and what is all of this? And

So therefore am I chasing this or that, or am I trying to get this kind of achievement or some sort of validation? And none of it ultimately will fill that gap because the gap is an illusion. And when we can fall into what is, it's not something necessarily we learn. It's more like peeling back an onion. There's, there's a deep well and endless well of something that isn't a destination. It's just what we are. And so I think that's what I'll practice.

and art and these experiences in a sense help you feel.

Scott Britton (02:24.435)

I've heard, wanna dive more into that, but I've heard you talk about yourself and your music. You're more of a channeler than a producer or a composer. I don't know what the right words would be. Talk to me what that means for you.

East Forest (02:40.878)

I mean, look, I would say I'm I'm a musician and artists like anybody else. mean, I could argue that all art, like where does creativity or ideas, where do they come from? I mean, I we don't really know. And it's been called things like the muse or it feels more like you're an antenna and you're doing things to pick up on vibes, right. And channel that through. So it's more like feeling like you're responsible for the labor versus the fruits.

Scott Britton (02:58.983)

Right.

East Forest (03:11.47)

So in that sense, I think all art is a kind of channeling. I don't think I'm like different in that regard.

Scott Britton (03:20.647)

I think I would agree with you. mean, what comes up for me is that book, The War of Art, right? About just showing up every day and then just allowing it to come through. there's such a, for me, there's just such a beauty in shifting the attribution of ideas and concepts that move into your awareness from like, I had this great idea. It's like, okay, cool, this is here. Like, what's going on with that?

East Forest (03:26.424)

Totally.

East Forest (03:48.12)

War of Arts brilliant book because it's really interesting that there's a kind of resistance to doing the thing that fulfills you. Even though it's like every single time you do it, you're reminded in a sense that, I feel so much better. You know, like this is good for me. I actually like this, but then yet the next day it's the same thing. let's check the email or, you know, let me just unload the dishwasher. It's like all these weird resistances.

to the thing you actually nourishes you the most. It is confounding, but the way he addresses it in that book, I'm sure you've given that book to many people or recommended it as have I. It's very concise in the point of like, it's like, don't even, don't dawdle around with what's going on here. Just approach it like, yes, it will be that kind of battle. So just accept that. And you, every day when you wake up, that's what you, that's what you get into.

Scott Britton (04:44.253)

Totally. What do you attribute that difficulty towards in the creative process that often comes up that he talks about?

East Forest (04:55.482)

What is, I think the resistance must lie in that it's a little bit of work and vulnerability, of course, and bravery to step into that unknown and to see what might come through. And maybe it's just parts of us that feel, I'm like, what if I fail or what if it's bad? Or more importantly, checking that email or whatever the dopamine hits or whatever it is much easier. All right. It's like, well, I know I'll get a little pleasure out of that. So let me do that. Or let me have a snack. That's a little pleasure, you know?

Scott Britton (05:03.176)

Mmm.

Scott Britton (05:19.272)

Right.

East Forest (05:25.08)

So I think it's, it's stepping into the unknown and like, I be held this time? And you are, but it's natural for that to be a little scary. I can understand that. feel that.

Scott Britton (05:42.321)

Yeah, it definitely resonates around the vulnerability and the safety of the vulnerability and putting yourself out there in the safety of procrastination. You know, I think on the right, right.

East Forest (05:51.406)

Totally. They perceive, perceived safety, right? You know, it, it, it, it's, it's just like, think we're also have a lot going on. have information sickness. A lot of us are strung out and tired and all these other things, all of those demands. So it's also recognition that it's carving out time for creativity. It's actually required because it's very rare these days. It just kind of happens.

Indigenously in a way. So when you think like that, you, I like to say you have to create the stage to be spoken to. And what I mean is spoken to by, call it your highest self, like your parts of your wisdom and mind that are like the wisest, or you could look at it like the universe itself, or you could look at even just like divinity, like the things that are unseen, these greater energies that exist. And the

they're speaking to us. They're like sort of knocking on the door, but we have to create this sense of opening the door and opening the door is a choice. That's the labor. And by doing that, we can allow what is to speak to us, to work through us. That's what intuition is. That's the creative spark is. That's what your gut is. These are critical things to

of being fully what you are. And it's largely to me about information sickness in a sense that we're overrun. We have so many things knocking on a door. They're like the little knocks, but there's a thousand of them. But then there's one that's not even knocking standing in the background. I'm like, Oh wait, you know, but I'm here. And I think crisis comes in our lives when you haven't opened that door in a way. It's like, eventually the message it's like water pressure pushing up against not to mix metaphors here, but

Scott Britton (07:31.911)

Yup.

East Forest (07:45.038)

it's going to come through at some point. So you might as well let a little water in each day, keep that river flowing. Right. You don't want to damn it up.

Scott Britton (07:55.847)

Yeah, I mean, I think most people that come to on a consciousness path, they, they didn't do it by choice, right? It's like life back into them, often through suffering.

East Forest (08:03.875)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. But I want to point out that I, this is not like some conversation that's only relevant to quote unquote artists or creatives. I really feel that this is a fundamental part of being a human. So the act of what I'm speaking to creating that stage or that invitation is it can be through creativity and art, but it also can just be like sitting down for a second or doing one thing at a time.

or doing nothing at a time, even if it's for a minute. You know, it's as simple as that. It's like, just slow it down and just do this, just this. Cause there isn't anything else. Everything else is something we're placing on top of that. So there are some really easy ways to do that. And one of them, which I talk about sometimes is like listening to music. Cause if you really are just listening, I you're actively listening or like I'm listening, I'm noticing what I'm hearing.

You're inherently in the present moment. You're just thinking about that one thing and it's engendering feelings in you. That's what music does. And so that's a great way. If you don't want to just sit with literal silence or nothing, or you don't feel like you want to sit down and free, right. Or do something like that, which are all amazing experiences, but there's endless things to do that to make you do one thing or come into the now, but

That's where creation comes starts to come through.

Scott Britton (09:36.755)

What is setting that stage look like in your life on a regular basis? Do have any rituals or routines?

East Forest (09:43.982)

The big one is playing music. And I'm often like right now, before this conversation, rehearsing for my tour. I'm playing and when I'm playing, I'm very present because I have to, I just am. And so there's something about that is, is equivalent of going to the gym. Like I just worked out, I worked out those, that creative thing, the water got the flow through. I just feel better. It feels like the day has meaning after that, it's sort of in that press field language from the war of art.

Scott Britton (10:12.211)

Hmm.

East Forest (10:13.752)

The day now has meaning. I don't have that monkey on my back. It's like, in some ways it almost feels devotional, but it also feels like calisthenics in a sense. Like, all right, did my pushups. It's like, all right, now I can go have lunch or whatever. I can do the emails. I can do the podcast, different things. That's very important. for me, it's also getting outside. Anytime I can be outside and try to do one thing at a time, like going on walks, even just walking the dog and just being in it, just noticing what I see.

I just sense these things as.

the other polarity of the rest of our digital lifestyles or some kind of balm or kryptonite that is really critical.

Scott Britton (11:00.049)

Yeah, so what I'm hearing is that, and this is how I feel, it's like it's never been more distracting to be a human. There's never been more coming at us. And so like, just having these go to dedicated times and practices is kind of what we can do to actually have access to the divine and have access to this type of creative insight and direction.

East Forest (11:25.368)

Yeah. I think it's even worse than that. should I just say bigger deal than that? Like, I think if we don't, we'll die. Like we're, we're killing ourselves by choice. Like our nervous systems are, we're hacking our consciousness in a way that is completely deleterious to what it means to be human in an experimental way by the greatest minds ever about how to hack our brains. And we're allowing it to happen and paying for it.

and participating in it. And I participate in it, but it's like only we each as individuals can curate our minds and our consciousness only. And it is not easy, especially when you have this thing, this phone amidst everything else, that's like the trickiest best thing in the world. You know, your best friend, any average person spends almost seven hours a day on it, you know, in different forms or another.

The stakes really are that high. I'm not saying throughout your phone, that's not going to happen. But if you don't carve out ways to balance that scale and bring in your humanness, it will be just like, it's beautiful that you brought up the war of art. it's like, replace the word art with like being a human. It's the war of being a human these days. And it's the same, like every day you will get up and you're like, I bet we all do this. Like turn on the phone, you know?

Scott Britton (12:41.683)

Truth.

East Forest (12:50.542)

And it's like, yeah, that's there. That's going to happen. That's there. So was like, but you have to do some of these other things these days that will be every day of war. Like I have to go on that walk or what you'll start to figure out your recipe. And so I think the name of the game is figuring out that recipe. Otherwise there truly is no hope. You know, I mean, that's like how you can participate in this great transition that we're in. That's how you counter.

Scott Britton (12:50.81)

What's the first thing you do in the morning?

East Forest (13:19.17)

with your own actions, your own choices.

Scott Britton (13:22.983)

Do ever feel like, I mean, a lot of people feel like there's a great awakening happening on the planet right now. And there does seem to be more more people getting interested in consciousness and going on their own journeys. But simultaneously, it's getting more difficult, right? It's like we're coming into a head, right? And the tests are getting more, yeah, just more difficult. Do you ever feel like that?

East Forest (13:51.682)

yes. And the perception of what you're saying, you have to ask yourself, is that largely through the mechanisms of digital social media and so forth that you're making that perception? Or is it through people you're talking to and your friends that like, actually know them and you're talking to them and like, what is the litmus test? Where is the feedback coming from? Because I could argue that if you, if you took out like what you think is going on,

by what you see digitally versus what you know is going on in your orbit and what you've come across. They're probably kind of different. I mean, if you really took stock, we just blend them all together and we're just like, this is the world. I do it. but I think if you really try to be honest about what do I know is true, perhaps one of the gifts of peak content that we're racing towards, I mean, recently, right, with Sora.

Scott Britton (14:31.251)

Definitely.

East Forest (14:46.67)

And now video, we're at a place where like, even this conversation right now soon will be in a place like, is this real? I don't know. It looks like I know Scott, I know he's for us. It appears to be them talking. We, I don't know, it might not be though. This one could be fake. That's exactly what an avatar would say. My point is like, perhaps the freedom in that is we start to give up completely. It completely is bereft of truth because the truth is the bottom fell out.

Scott Britton (14:59.419)

I promise I'm not an avatar.

Right.

East Forest (15:15.884)

And it's like, you no longer, the truth truly is gone, shared truth in digital space. And maybe then it forces us into finding like what is actually real and what's around us. so I think, know, if we bioacomalaffe has this wonderful line, I hope I'm not paraphrasing it incorrectly, but that the times are urgent, let us slow down. And it feels like we need to shrink.

our sense of meaning in our life because it's become overblown or become overextended in a way that's not only unnecessary, but not even helping us in any particular way. It's getting out of this idea of the economy of scale, that that's inherently better. And that is how the entire economy is built. All right. Like money is the only thing on this planet. If you let it sit, it grows. You don't touch it.

You know, it's the only thing, everything else has entropy. That's not natural. Everything, our economy, most economies are based on growth. That means you have to turn things into commodities. have to commodify things. We're running out of things to do that with. So there's going to have to be shifts here. I think if we wanted to scale back to our own lives and the things we can influence, how can we...

shrink our own lives in a way that makes that which remains more potent, richer, right? Less stretched out. So perhaps a shrink-flation kind of thing in our own life brings far more depth. Perhaps you're stronger, perhaps things, you know what mean? It's like not as overstretched.

Scott Britton (16:59.485)

Hmm.

Scott Britton (17:06.739)

How do you balance that with the notion of contribution? Like I look at you and I'm like, you create this incredible music, it touches people in profound ways. The documentary, just came up, Music for Mushrooms documentary, the tour, right? I could see it there being an easy narrative of like, okay, we're gonna do a bigger tour next year and then we're gonna reach more people.

East Forest (17:33.058)

Yeah, I should take my own medicine. I hear what you're saying. You're right. No, everything I'm saying is what I'm struggling with myself.

Scott Britton (17:40.381)

Dude, I struggle with the same thing, so I totally get it.

East Forest (17:42.638)

Of course we do. course we do. Look, had a, I have had, have technically a podcast. I did over 300 episodes. They were all conversation based like this. It was fun, but also a lot of work. And I never stopped. I did it once a week for like five years, got to 300 some episodes. And then the movie started happening. And I finally was like, I actually have to put something on the shelf, at least for a few months, because I can't do it all.

So I finally gave myself permission to pause on the podcast and then three months go by, four months go by, six months go by. I'm like, wait, what am I doing? It's like, I think it was a good, it's a good podcast. I believe in those conversations, but also it's like, I mean, what am I doing? Like I'm just doing things. And I still haven't figured that one out. Cause I still wrestle with the like, but it's a thing. I built it.

And da da da. I, and it's promotional. yeah. And I haven't let it go. I've actually, keep adding episodes here and there, but it's just not as like regular, but I was doing one today and I'm like, why, what's my deal? You know, like, can't I, so this, I think it's very intoxicating the world that we're in. And I also think it's important for us or myself.

Scott Britton (18:40.147)

Right, right. I put all this effort into it. I don't want it to die.

East Forest (19:09.346)

to think about it in baby steps or little bits. It's not about just like, I'm not asking us to go live in caves. Of course, that's silly. I am saying how do we be humans in modernity living today, leading a life with more authenticity. So I would hope is the goal of most people, more compassion to be, as you say, the things we do are not delusions. They actually have impact in the world.

But I do think if we can release, if you can release the idea of scale, you know, that's, there's a freedom in that. Like do the podcast, but it's, you can let go of the idea that it has to be bigger. If it's bigger, it's bigger. Just focus on the thing and whether you're enjoying it and its quality, all that is great. And they can, I think that's admirable, honorable.

it's, again, the labor versus the fruits do that. If you want to do the tour, be honest about if you want to do it, but you just do it. You're not like, it's very difficult to do this by the way, because everything's fighting against you in the other direction and telling you these messages of the opposite. So it goes back to the war of art in a way. I think it's a practice. I think it's something that's not just like you decide this and that's that it's you continually.

Scott Britton (20:25.651)

Hmm.

East Forest (20:35.426)

have to remind yourself and nourish yourself and do those practices that help you be like, it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. And what you're grateful for already. It's okay for me to have what I perceive to be the greatest job in the world and sometimes say, this is hard. They both can be true. And so a lot of what it means these days to be alive is to hold a

a multitude of contradictory emotions and recognize that you're able to do that. You don't have to stand in one place and just sort of accepting that and knowing that like, all right. That's weird, but I feel a lot of things.

Scott Britton (21:22.631)

I'm laughing because I have just been recounting recently to a number of friends that seems like more and more like realizations on the spiritual journey always end up being, and both are true, right? It's always like, and both are true, right? It always kind of ends up there.

East Forest (21:37.517)

Yeah.

East Forest (21:42.21)

Like Buddhist Co-Ons, like the essence of them are breaking your brain and logic to the nothingness. Or I love the line, Matthew Fox was on my podcast years ago. And I've said this many times because he said, when you have an experience with the numinous or the mystical, the only rational response is silence or art.

And it's another recognition that there's really nothing to say. So.

We can say nothing and that's the fullness of the experience. We can paint a picture. We can sing a song. I it's a big dance. It's like the song, sit around the fire and that line of Ram Dass is that all there really is for us to do as people for eternity is to sit around the fire together. And I hope when you hear that, for me, I feel emotion because it's a license to let go.

and be held and say like, you know what, the grasping, all the things, the problems, all good. Either way you're here and I'm here and it's all okay. know, so it's like, it's, it's not even a problem that we're trying to figure it out or we're striving. It's like, it's, you're, you're still here within the great mother, so to speak. Right. So.

That's the goodness.

Scott Britton (23:19.357)

That line made me feel an immense sense of relief.

East Forest (23:22.85)

Yes, relief's a great word.

Scott Britton (23:25.267)

You know, I know a lot of people talk about just like the power of sound in terms of how it can entrain our bodies to go into altered states or help our nervous systems. And with your music, it kind of has a distinctly different distinct difference to it, my experience of it. It's like a lot of those stuff, a lot of that type of music that's created for those purposes, it lacks like a soul.

You know, it lacks like the integration of like the nature sounds. It's just so special.

East Forest (24:00.78)

Or it's, are you saying like a lot of new age music is bad? Yeah, well it is.

Scott Britton (24:05.053)

Kind of, yeah, mean, kind of, mean, but it's like a biannual beat, right? Like, it can only get you so far, right? And there's something more core that I feel like your music taps into.

East Forest (24:12.087)

East Forest (24:16.62)

Well, I think music to me is the most effective when it has heart and the music that is the most effective in like the, the psychedelic guidance space, for instance, is, is it coming from the heart or is it more like an idea or a performative in a sense of concept? And, then I think you can not just see through it, but you feel through it. Like you're saying right away and

think that's that word authenticity again, about that's something that we're hungry for as people because that's a reflection then of our own authenticity of what we are. We want to just feel it and see it and cozy up to it and get close to like the truth. My buddy says, truth is the greatest good, but love is the highest truth.

It's a, it's a poem of sorts and that's what we want. So when it's reflected in art or presence or a person or a thing, you want more of that. You want to get closer to it.

Scott Britton (25:30.673)

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I know with some of the psychedelic journey music, like music for mushrooms, those were all recorded like during a live ceremony. It wasn't like you went into a studio and did those.

East Forest (25:42.125)

Yes.

Yeah, yes, lovingly the album in music for mushrooms, a few others, they're what I call ceremony records because they're recorded inside mushroom ceremonies and they're improvised. very bespoke purpose. But that being said, I think the music stands, I hope on its own, whether or not you're using it for that purpose. I've heard of kids using it as their night night music.

Parents is the only thing I don't get the kids to sleep. But it's, fully unlocks when people give it the time and space, uh, for an experience like that. Cause that's what it's from. That's what it's imbibed with and what informs it and guides it.

Scott Britton (26:35.825)

Yeah, I feel like I heard you talk about a quote that's like the essence of that music is continues like across space and time.

East Forest (26:48.272)

I think.

I hate using this word from the quantum space. It's true though, in a quantum reality or physics, know, things are in different locations. They affect each other across time instantly. mean, things that are, as Einstein put it, spooky. This is measurable. Okay. And in a psychedelic space, I have the sense that it's working in these meta spaces of time.

Scott Britton (26:55.505)

Nice.

East Forest (27:21.068)

and reality. And we have evidence of that when you're in those spaces of the extreme synchronicities and alignments, things that are just, it seems pointless to try to explain it. It's just like, it's just so true in it. And I've noticed that I just feel that those medicine spaces are working not in straight linear time and space. That's kind of, it's what you're getting into in a way with the chemicals.

and plans and fungi. And so therefore they are working with you across time and space. It's just about how much you choose to listen, creating that stage to be spoken to. As we said, it will continue to work and speak with you, but you have to listen. That is a choice. You don't have to listen actually. Neither is right or wrong. It's just an opportunity. It's a choice.

Scott Britton (28:17.703)

It reminds me a lot of, I don't know if you've ever picked up a great text and felt a particular way holding it, reading it, like that transmission effect. It's very real with spiritual teachers in my opinion, where you can kind of feel the essence of the teacher just by reading something. But I often think that concept doesn't get talked about when it comes to music.

East Forest (28:43.22)

Huh, what have you felt that with? Any books or something you're thinking of?

Scott Britton (28:46.457)

Yeah, there's a book called

It's by, well, I've definitely felt it with Eckhart Tolle a lot. And then there's a book called Silence of the Heart. And it's by a very kind of not well-known teacher. I think his name is Robert Grant. My memory has been really bad lately. But I picked up that book and I just felt my heart completely open, just reading it. And to the point where I could only read like one page a day.

East Forest (29:19.79)

That's cool.

Scott Britton (29:20.039)

Like it was, it was kind of like, can't keep reading this, like just to like read it, you know, I need to kind of just like digest it. And with Eckhart Tolle, I also noticed that his, I mean, his presence is so, it's like so attuned. And I would feel my system drop into a deep state of presence by experiencing his, his material, both written or spoken.

Have you ever had anything like that?

East Forest (29:51.192)

With books or with anything. yeah. I'm just trying to think. mean, I definitely, first thing that comes to mind is more than natural world, like places that I feel like extreme power and energy, lot of mountains. I spent a lot of time in Southern Utah. I have some property down there and live down there for whenever I can get down there and it's on a mountain.

Scott Britton (29:54.056)

with anything.

Scott Britton (30:05.351)

Mmm.

East Forest (30:18.854)

And it just, the reason I go is because of that feeling. Like it's an overwhelming sense of power. And I feel humbled when I'm there, but sometimes it's a little scary and difficult, but I know it's really good medicine. so I just keep going back, but I've heard a lot of magic around, like, be here now, the original Ram Dass book, you know, with the Brown pages.

Scott Britton (30:30.547)

you

East Forest (30:47.918)

a lot of magic around that book. And I would read that and feel a similar feeling of like, this is hard to just like read because so many transmissions are coming through through how I feel. Whoa. Got to slow it down.

Scott Britton (31:03.251)

Totally. And so we're kind of at this interesting point, right? Where AI is going to make it much easier to create, know, create the perfect song for XYZ, right? Create a movie for me tonight, like all these things, right? And I'm curious how you feel, what you feel like the impact of that will be.

East Forest (31:25.88)

Well, it's kind of asking a dog what the impact will be when they learn how to speak and think like a human. They don't know. They can't even conceive. But I sense in the short term that we're going to reach, as I mentioned before, peak content. We're very close. I think it will destroy a sense of objective truth beyond where we are already.

I think in the music industry, will wash out recorded music to the point where it has almost no value economically. think live music will become more valuable. It doesn't mean that people won't still like hopefully my music or Lady Gaga or whatever. They will, but you have to fast forward in time. Like, where does it go in a generation and maybe even a few years. And some of this is

somewhat procedural in that if you have a hundred thousand songs uploaded a day to the streaming services right now, and what if that's a hundred million a day? I mean, it's essentially infinite. And then there's economic models where if the streamers and the majors start to make this music, which they are some of them.

well then they're no longer really advocating for expensive human artists that they have to deal with and all the problems that come along with them, unless that makes more money, but it's a volume game. Perhaps. So I think it, I don't know where the line is there. It's just about what people choose to consume. If enough people choose to consume tick tock right now, for instance, and things get shorter and shorter and faster and faster and crazier and crazier and kind of pointless.

Scott Britton (32:55.484)

Hmm

East Forest (33:12.982)

I guess there's plenty of people who want to be anesthetized by that and maybe they want to go even deeper. you know, it's just take that blue pill every day.

And that's, but again, maybe that's the only way through. Maybe we have to find rock bottom and we definitely haven't found rock bottom yet. As crazy as things are. we often have to be forced as people to change. It's usually through divorce, bankruptcy, near death experiences, things like this. And then you make big changes in your life. None of those do people typically choose.

or you know what I mean. So it's really what's happening on a meta scale, meta used pun intended. So

Scott Britton (33:54.856)

Right.

East Forest (34:05.174)

I think it's, there's, there's arguments to say that the process will be slower than a lot of people are saying. And I can understand that, you know, electrical needs and processors and things like that. But then there's an argument that's fairly convincing the other side. It's like, it's quite a lot faster than some had planned, whether, you know, AGI super intelligence from fourth within two years or something, you know, let alone 10 or 30. I suppose that's possible. Right. I don't know. But what we do know.

is that what we're doing with a lot of those tools currently, of course, they're upsides, but just, the Sora thing that happened recently about creating any video want, and we're going to kind of erase the ability to know what's real again. So

Scott Britton (34:49.649)

Mmm.

East Forest (34:51.916)

I think it's going to be odd. do. think it's going to be real odd. And you just slapped out on top of ecological crisis, political destability, maybe economic collapse. I add on your crisis, your polycrisis that we're in here. And, I do think the name of the game is about inner fortitude. I mean, that's my main message out there. Like this meditation album I'm putting out there, it's basically about helping people get in touch with.

Scott Britton (35:13.317)

Mmm.

East Forest (35:21.922)

the things, the strength that's already there inside, get familiar with that, do your calisthenics, make it really approachable and easy. Cause that's the most valuable skill you're going to have moving forward is your own sense of groundedness and true North, because the rest of it's going to be unstable and you won't, the compass won't work.

Scott Britton (35:44.467)

Yeah, it's crazy. mean, I was with my wife last night on the couch and she was showing me this video of an alligator, like coming up to this front door with this little kid standing in front of it. Like the alligator was going to eat the kid. And I was like, holy shit, this is insane. And then she's like, oh, no, no, no, this was AI generated. I know. But like in my head, I was like, well, this is why we don't move to Florida.

East Forest (36:05.516)

I was going to say like, it's probably not real. Probably looked real.

Scott Britton (36:13.683)

You know, like, and like, just is. That's totally true, too. And I was like, but like here, like it's just a small, silly example. it but it's like actually like so demonstrative where fake video created. I thought it was real. It reminds me of like I'm not moving my family to a certain place. Right. Like this stuff is really going to. And we still don't know whether that was real or not. She thinks it was a agenda.

East Forest (36:14.03)

Well, there's other reasons not to move to Florida, but...

Scott Britton (36:41.437)

But like, this is like, just like the micro scale of it. And this is about to happen in a huge way.

East Forest (36:47.324)

yeah, it perfectly set micro scale about to happen on a huge way. And we can't even conceive in the ways that will be used and not used. And we're just in the baby steps of it too. You know, mean, and, and any industry, especially the creative industries, podcasting music, video, films, writing news, you know, take your pick. All of them completely transformed.

Scott Britton (37:14.259)

So does that recognition, does that change how you approach things at all? Or is it, I'm curious how.

East Forest (37:21.496)

Yes.

East Forest (37:25.066)

Well, none of them are definitive, but I have a lot of thoughts. well, that's why I'm putting so much time and energy and really devoting all of my time right now into touring, which is the hardest thing I do and the most time consuming and maybe the least profitable and just, you know, physically so challenging, but I'm doing it because I think that will be maybe the only way and certainly the most effective way to

work with people and affect change in the world moving forward. It already is very powerful, but I think when we have such a washout of content, we'll be more hungry for that and need it really. And so it's sort of like trying to build more roots and infrastructure for myself, both emotionally, but my own team to make that like, okay, we've got, we've got some legs, some seeds we've put down. So we're not just scrambling in a sense. That's one example.

Scott Britton (38:07.261)

Hmm.

Scott Britton (38:24.753)

Yeah, I mean that that makes sense to me. You know, I think a lot of the things we've it's kind of like we're going to swing back to a lot of the old school stuff. Just like the in person one on one. That's right.

East Forest (38:33.902)

Well, it's the human stuff. were humans. We want to be human. Right. So it's like, when you start taking it away in other areas, you're going to have to find it in new areas. Look, I used to be a photographer as my day job in my twenties when, and once the iPhone came out, I was like, all right, I can see the writing on the wall. Like it's going to be harder and harder for people to pay me top dollar when this kind of stuff is going to get better and better and better. And it is, it is.

They're not gone, you know, yeah. And so that was a slower example. So everything's accelerating and you know, Terrence McKenna, you ever get into his stuff? was a philosopher and psychedelic philosopher. He would speak about this con crescence or this casuistry or what the thing we're accelerating towards on this exponential scale, just this scale of progress.

Scott Britton (39:06.973)

charter.

Scott Britton (39:16.455)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

East Forest (39:31.584)

And it's very obvious to see from the stone or bronze ages or stone ages before that to moving towards agriculture.

moving into the industrial revolution, the atomic age, the information age. And it's just graph that's going up and up and up. And here we are speeding towards what? Something. You know, the more you zoom in on that, it's sort of fractal in the sense that you can keep zooming in, it's accelerating objectively to what? So some say it's a singularity. Maybe it's with AI. Maybe it is. What does that mean? Is that AGI?

Is that some sort of consciousness? I don't think it is, but you know, what is it? Is it something else? Is it the end of time? As he would call it something that we're racing towards, hurtling towards. And what that is, uh, as you can see how, as he would call it, the novelty is increasing. Things are getting sense weirder and weirder and faster and faster. I mean, it's obvious. So you start talking about like Trump and stuff. mean, it just becomes like a daily thing.

It's like, what's it today? Right. And, it's deadly serious and very real and having real world effects. so the word apocalypse, I believe means unveiling and yeah, we should probably fact check that while we're talking here. But if that's true, it's an interesting way to look at it. Right. Like that's something's, it is more of a great transition than just collapse. through the collapse.

Scott Britton (40:53.838)

Mm, didn't know that.

East Forest (41:10.23)

maybe the way that something else is revealed and perhaps the only way.

Scott Britton (41:16.337)

Yeah, I think about the quote that I've heard a lot of people say and I don't know who even said it, but it's like the old paradigm must crumble before a new one can be built. And it's like, kind of, kind of seems like par for the course.

East Forest (41:33.592)

says in Greek, it means revelation, disclosure, or uncovering.

Scott Britton (41:38.471)

Wow, that's fascinating.

East Forest (41:40.076)

Yeah, I mean, there you go. There you go. So Oppo meaning off and Caleptin or cleptin meaning to cover, to conceal, so take off the cover.

Scott Britton (41:52.135)

Hmm. So, well, I guess we're going to learn something big. One way or another.

East Forest (41:56.238)

UFOs. It's UFOs. Who doesn't? Yeah, I want to believe. I want to believe.

Scott Britton (42:00.787)

I wanna learn about that too. I'm like, hey, disclosure, cool, bring it on. One question I had for you, I know you've done some cool studies with Imperial College of London, John Hopkins. What did you learn? What was the main kind of takeaways from those experiences?

East Forest (42:24.024)

Well, the participation is actually with, UCSF, Robin Carhartt Harris, who used to be at Imperial, but now he's at UCSF. And, and I did some other studies that were that's straight science, his study on set and setting, but there's others like did some fun stuff with Google and John Hopkins did a neuroesthetics experiments. And so that's more like, commercial science or I guess, or, know, projects, cool projects.

Scott Britton (42:52.242)

Mm-hmm.

East Forest (42:54.836)

the thing I've learned over the years seems to be the untapped potential, at least from the sound and music space of what we can do with sound in a very scientific and even medical way that in real world stuff going on and how it affects our neurobiology, let alone the stuff I've experienced. That's metaphysical. That's just like been the most important things I've ever experienced in my life. These are like.

You know, there's this, interviewed Ivy Ross and Susie Mag Salmon on my podcast. had this book called your brain on art. There was stuff in there about like some study about low frequency pulses and Alzheimer's and like clearing plaques and actual effects. I'm like, wait, you're telling me that they've done studies where someone basically stands in front of a speaker. People have been doing this at techno raves forever. I think it's kind of intuitively we're feeling this.

And it was actually, they could get the frequencies right. And it's a real scientific study and it's helping them or something like that. Or, or very clear results to longevity and creativity. Like very clear, like you will live longer and they could start to measure how much it was a lot. Yeah. If you're like writing songs and stuff, and then in a step down, if you're singing and then a step down, if you're just listening or appreciating art.

even that started to push you in that direction. it's funny how we need proof of a lot of these things, but maybe we will start to have more verifiable data where people can start to do these things. Cause they feel like, I need to do that. You know, and like, you do need to do that.

Scott Britton (44:36.093)

Hmm. Well, it's kind of like meditation where it's like people used to think it was a weird thing and now people feel bad if they're not doing it.

East Forest (44:44.238)

Yeah. And you have to demystify it too, right? Like if I told you to listen to a song and gave you a really simple way to do it, that's, think most people get that. If I told you to meditate, a lot of people are like, I don't even know what you mean. Or like, I don't, I'm just sitting there thinking, you know, that's actually one of the reasons I'm putting out this album, lovingly guided, not to promo myself, but I mean, it is guided meditations. want to make it as easy as possible. You know, so

Scott Britton (44:59.484)

Yeah.

Scott Britton (45:08.691)

From away,

East Forest (45:13.59)

Lovely guidance is music from my album, Lovelyly, but I did, I speak you through a little meditations and the music, think music can make things so, so much easier. It's pretty, we're pretty easy for us to put our attention onto a song and just relax. It doesn't feel like work. It's actually pleasurable and it can be pleasurable.

Scott Britton (45:34.535)

Yeah, it's very interesting to think about how low the utilization rate is. you know, cool, we listen to some music when we work out, like maybe do it here, but like, imagine going into a doctor's office and like the music being like perfectly primed, right, for.

East Forest (45:49.206)

Well, you could argue that's going to happen with AI, right? mean, I actually would argue that the utilization is super high. Like we're all using music in more ways than we ever have. And its accessibility is higher than it's ever been. That's actually why I did things like the Music for Mushrooms album in 2019. I thought, look, this would be the lowest barrier, the lowest friction.

to guide people through psychedelic journeys for all these people who are curious and thinking about it. like, want to, from a harm reduction point of view, give them a tool. And this way it's in their pocket on YouTube, Spotify, and they just hit play. And that could get them hopefully way down the line of having a more positive experience than nothing. Or they're like, I've heard about retreats overseas. I don't have the money for that. I'm not doing that. I'm just going to take them, you know?

or I want to. And so I just want to give people tools. And I think music is this hidden, sa- type thing. know, music is the Messiah in a way. I say that purposely with a little cattiness, but it, it's right there in front of us. And I, I think that there's a lot of potential about ways we could use it with more consciousness and that are frankly,

an open landscape. It's quite infinite and has been done for millennia. we, that's how we've been guiding ceremonies, for instance, in every culture forever. Wow. That's, that's an interesting through line.

Scott Britton (00:01.465)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think it's fascinating that we've kind of been aware of this technology that's available to us to support humanity. And I think you nailed it when we're just the conscious application of it is relatively low.

East Forest (00:18.988)

Yes, there you go. And I don't mean that to sound like it's some big bummer or a lot of work. It's just, it's more like, Hey, there's just, just endless potentiality and you're kind of already doing it. Like you said, when you work out, like you're doing that to change your consciousness, to get amped up, or sometimes you put it on to chill or to go to bed or to get excited. Like we're doing it. And it's just so available. It's like, guess what? We could do more and maybe it'll work really well and you can do it how you like it.

And it can work really well for you perhaps. So I think, I hope that it can be one of our tools in the toolkit.

Scott Britton (00:58.049)

You me both, man. Well, I think we have to adjourn here, but this has been awesome. And I know you got a lot of cool stuff coming on with the tour, the new Meditation album. Can you share more just so everybody listening knows where to go?

East Forest (01:08.141)

Yeah.

Yeah. East forest.org and you'll see all the tour dates in Europe and Australia and particularly in United States coming up here. Like November 25 is the Northeast Midwest. And I can't wait to live experiences like the thing I'm working so hard on. And it's so beautiful when we all come together. I just don't wait to miss out. I have a, a Patreon where you can join for free. That's where I share lots of my

stuff I'm working on and we do a monthly little gathering council. But my film Music for Mushrooms is on my website I mentioned or musicformushrooms.com. And we're really proud of that. It's snappy, it's 82 minutes. So it's a good watch. It's not some like, I gotta sit down and like watch this educational thing. It's like, no, no, no, it's entertaining. Like you can put this on your partner for your nighttime viewing and I think you'll be really happy.

And then I have a record coming out on Halloween. It's called Lovingly Guided. It's eight guided meditations that are easy peasy and hopefully really fun for people.

Scott Britton (02:19.607)

Epic. Well, we'll link all those out and excited to excited for all that man I will be I will be consuming and hopefully catch you live in early 2026.

East Forest (02:28.94)

Yeah, man. was good to meet you and had a good time.