EvolutionFM Transcript: Getting Unstuck Between Your Old Self and New Self (Marc Champagne)

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or on your favorite podcast platform.

Marc Champagne brings a whole new dimension to inner reflection in this episode, revealing how a single, well-timed question saved him from spiraling during his darkest moment. With a deep passion for mental fitness, Marc dives into how ancient methods like the Socratic method and modern tools can help surface the most powerful questions at exactly the right time.

He shares how personal stillness practices and intuitive questioning can unlock clarity, creativity, and resilience even in the face of fear. But just when you think you’ve grasped his approach, he unveils a deeper idea that he’s only just beginning to explore the sacred and often disorienting space of being between selves where transformation quietly takes root and the real journey begins...

Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 1+ hour, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!

Scott Britton (00:01.142)

Mark, what's up, man?

Marc Champagne (00:02.94)

I'm 100 % Scott, it's good to be here. Can't wait to jam.

Scott Britton (00:06.718)

Yeah, excited for this conversation. And I thought I'd kick it off with a quote that I've heard you say a number of times. I really love it. And it's kind of a good entree to the beginning of our conversation. But the quote goes, we're all one question away from a completely different life or mood at any point.

Marc Champagne (00:27.49)

Yeah.

Scott Britton (00:28.696)

Tell me about when you first kind of keyed into this, what was happening in your life.

Marc Champagne (00:35.713)

Yeah, it was a big one. was how I guess what I would describe as a rock bottom moment or at least the darkest moment in my life where for the first and hopefully last times I haven't felt like this since, but where I felt like I lost all hope and just shut a business down and there was just a lot of confusion and uncertainty. I sent an email to a mentor of mine.

who I had interviewed a few times for my show, Behind the Human. And I just said, was the gentleman by the name of Chip Conley. And I said, I gave him a, oh, has he really? Oh yeah, I did know that. Yeah, so Chip, so you know, so this is even more context or relatable. Chip is not someone that's gonna send you an email with a giant paragraph in return. He'll most likely write back to you, which always blows my mind given the amount of volume of messages coming his way.

Scott Britton (01:12.002)

been a guest on the show, so people might know him. Yep.

Marc Champagne (01:34.075)

And in this particular situation, it couldn't have been a more perfect example of that. I gave him bit of a rundown of what had just happened and how I was feeling. And was just asking for general advice. And all he did was reply to my email with one question. And he said, well, what do you want for your life? And that question at that time from him, because of his reputation and the respect I had for him,

It had enough power to pause a lot of really destructive thoughts and pause the essentially deep depression that I was heading towards long enough to start asking some other questions and slowly start to regain hope. And I had to come back to it over and over again, but that's when it really clicked. Probably not right in that moment, but in retrospect, thinking of the moment that helped me most in my life at that time, where I was like, wow, that all happened because of one.

question. And all of us have access to that. And that's what or why I do what I do essentially day in and day out.

Scott Britton (02:40.566)

And this is not a new idea, right? I think you at some point stumbled on what's called the Socratic method. Can you share more about what that is if people haven't heard of it?

Marc Champagne (02:50.11)

Yeah, yeah, that, I mean, that's an interesting story. well, I think a lot of people have at least, and I would put myself in the same bucket, have heard of Socrates and sometimes, you know, there's a very high level description of like, oh yeah, that's that philosopher that would ask questions or something like that. That was kind of my viewpoint. And I remember when we were working on the book title, my publisher,

When I was explaining my fascination with questions and the way that I was using them and so forth, he just in passing said, that's the Socratic method. We should really call this book Personal Socrates. And I remember thinking, I'm like, absolutely not. I'm not a philosopher. The closest I ever got to philosophy and questioning like that was I remember my best friend was in law school and he'd come back and we'd just get nailed with questions. Or he was in that zone of

I'd ask something, he'd flip a question back. like, dude, I'm not in your law program here. Like, I'm just trying to have a conversation. So I didn't have like the most warm response to that title. But to answer your question, when I started looking into what the Socratic method actually is and was, like, wow, we're all doing this day in and day out and we don't even realize it because it's really in its simplest form. You you ask a big question and

you keep following up with other questions to get closer and closer to like the core truth or the core issue, whatever it is. And you can apply that across so many different, you know, topics like health is a good one, you know, like why, why do I feel like this? Or why am I having this skin condition? instead of, there's a symptom, right, of something else deeper happening and you can start to unpack that through questions. So I just remember thinking,

But this is a method that literally has been around for almost the beginning of time and has stood the test of time. We all use it in some capacity, but we don't really use it from an intent that we're not really aware of that because we're all asking questions. It's just, you know, are we asking the best quality questions? And in my case, like what Chip did for me, are they really well timed? And are you positioning them in the way that can help you most in the moment?

Scott Britton (05:14.09)

Yeah, I mean, that definitely seems where the power is. you know, I think a question, ironically, that I have for you is I've totally been the person, right, who's like bought the books about great questions to ask yourselves, developed a journaling template, quarterly retro six month ritual, right. And, you know, I still feel like I'm not I'm not

asking the right questions at the right time, or I could be doing it in a more powerful way than I am. And maybe AI has the capacity to change that in a way that we didn't do, we didn't have like five years ago. But what have you seen work really well for this kind of like right question, right time, personal reflection stack?

Marc Champagne (06:08.182)

Well, there's a secret sauce that I've noticed that, and maybe this is something that you can stack into your flow or your practice that actually has nothing to do with the template or the question itself. It has everything to do with setting up your mind to actually surface the best quality questions. And that's just finding your, basically your one big thing.

that stills your mind or puts your mind in a clear, know, level-headed kind of quiet space where we could call that reflection. And you've probably noticed this with your guests as well, but if I think of the 500 or so plus now over the years, they're all doing something like that. They're all prioritizing some type of practice that quiets their minds so that they can reflect.

And that's my definition of journaling, is just reflection. It doesn't have to be pen to paper, it doesn't have to be an audio note, it doesn't have to be a journaling app. Those are all helpful, of course, but it's just time, thinking, and questions happen to really help guide that process. if your mind, as an example, you, let's say you do have a journaling practice and you've gotten some benefit out of it, kind of like what you're describing,

like hard to stay consistent or maybe you feel like you can go a lot deeper, just try doing a five or six minute guided breathwork session right before doing that. And then, or meditation, you five or 10 minute meditation and then free write. You'll be blown away at how different the experience is. And it's simply because we're able to then jump in or tap into that practice like five, 10 steps deeper.

Scott Britton (07:54.766)

Hmm.

Marc Champagne (08:04.867)

I see it in corporate teams as well. whenever I do a keynote, I mean, we always do a three or four minute guided breathing experience before we jump into their mental fitness plans because I'm about to ask them some big questions and I don't know what people are coming in with. There's a slew of things going on in people's minds. But if we can find our one big thing, and for me often that's some sort of breathing, but you pick your thing, right? Like everyone's got something. You find your big thing that allows your mind to stay.

to quiet and still, and then tack that on to any kind of practice that would surface questions, you're miles ahead of the, I would say the entire population. That takes minutes, Scott. Like, I'm not talking about going on a seven day silent retreat.

Scott Britton (08:35.907)

Mmm.

Scott Britton (08:46.242)

Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Yeah, I love that idea. And so, you know, theoretically, you could have kind of like a great question bank available to you could be from your book, it could be just, you could just kind of create your own. And so you kind of stack that stillness practice with that. And one of the things that comes up for me actually is I noticed that my, tend to have incredible creative insights.

immediately after exercise. So if I do like some cardiovascular exercise, and then I go and I journal or I meditate or something like that, it's like, Whoa, like the creativity is really next level. I'm curious if you've observed something similar.

Marc Champagne (09:27.883)

Yeah. totally. For me, it's anytime I'm on, if I'm on a spin bike or if I can get out in, you know, on my actual mountain bike and in the forest. mean, that's a whole other, you know, level of power in the practice. But this happened last week. I described this as, and we were talking a little bit about this concept before we hit record, but this idea of kind of being between selves. And this is perfect example. I went to bed. I was super confident.

things are flowing, feeling awesome. Like projects are on point, really excited, pumped, went to bed energized and ready to go. I wake up just with fear. Like what is that all about? Like where's this fear coming? And it was just, I mean, it wasn't exactly when I woke up. The problem is, and I don't always do this and often don't do this, but within an hour of waking up, I checked my email. And I really try not to do that.

Scott Britton (10:07.47)

Mmm.

Marc Champagne (10:22.711)

But I was waiting for some projects and I was actually excited. It wasn't to try to catch up on things. It was more of an excitement. And there was one email in there that threw my mind off that triggered a bunch of old programming around like, ooh, if I lose that, or if that doesn't come through when I think it's gonna come through, like, the loop started. So right away I went and I was going to do this anyway. I started my physical exercise. I got on the bike.

started doing a workout and so forth. And then I started reflecting on a question that someone had left with me on the show not too long ago. And she said, you know, take any of the projects you're working on and just ask what would be the best case scenario? And so while I was doing the exercise, that question was in my mind in particular with this situation. By the time I got off the bike and I was stretching, I was in a completely different mental state.

And then I brought that to my AI friends as well, counsel.

Scott Britton (11:22.59)

Nice. Well, we're definitely going to talk about the AI council because it's a really cool idea. But I wanted to talk about, a phenomenon that I noticed and get your opinion on it. I, a lot of times, so I've noticed that when I just ask a question in the stillness or before doing something and I allow my consciousness to just kind of really take it in.

Marc Champagne (11:24.355)

Yeah, yeah.

Scott Britton (11:49.546)

It feels like almost like a seed is planting because without a dedicated journal exercise or without a, you know, really kind of like using the intellect to answer it, I'll notice that the information starts to just emerge in my awareness over time, like maybe later that day, or maybe two days from now or 10 days from now. And it seems like there's a real power there.

Marc Champagne (12:14.951)

yeah.

Scott Britton (12:15.092)

and of just of just like planting the seeds of questions about things. It's like your mind, your subconscious starts going and figuring out answers in the background or something. Have you observed this as well or done any research on what's going on there?

Marc Champagne (12:29.823)

I I implement this one all the time. It's the one simple, there's many ways to do this, but one of the most simple ways to do it is simple check-in at the first thing in the morning. And I do this as my coffee's brewing. And it's just a two question check-in. One, in one word, how do I feel right now? And if I'm feeling anxious or angry, like whatever the emotion is, then the second question is like, where is that coming from? Or can I cut that fuel source?

And then sorry, third is then you set the intention, right? Like how do I want to show up today? One word. And to your point, when you set that intention, I mean, the thing that we're, it's not new. You know, we're talking about it from a perspective of everyday living and then also business and so forth. But this, like any athlete, any Olympian, you're like, yeah, yeah, of course. I have Post-it notes on my wall reminding me of how I want to show up all day. They do it all the time.

in their discipline and there's no reason we can't do that in what we do, right? Because then the mind starts to look for situations and opportunities to feel energized or thriving or whatever that word is, right? And so it literally takes seconds to check in with yourself like that. And equally, if you're feeling fantastic, waking up great, you gotta bottle that up. Like, what's fueling that? What?

Reverse engineer the feeling, okay, it was because I did this last night or whatever the situation is and because we know just as through the human experience, we're gonna go up and down, usually throughout the day multiple times. So when you hit the down, like, yeah, I just need to do that thing that lit me up in the first place and not stay stuck in the mental torture that most of us get wrapped up in and then it it consumes the rest of your day or sometimes days, right?

So it doesn't, like my whole vibe is like this stuff does not have to be super complicated. It's just, we need to figure out ways to stack it into our existing routine so it's not this big shakeup and it's not like I have to get up an additional hour and a half and jump in a cold plunge and run around the block and journal for 30 minutes, all things that would work wonders in your life. But like what are the five or 10 minutes of the day that you can just

Marc Champagne (14:52.493)

put towards yourself that actually end up equating to hours, if not days of benefit. And that's one of those practices.

Scott Britton (14:58.732)

Yeah, it's a great call. mean, I think one of the things I've been trying to do is instead of just defaulting to like pulling out the phone, right? That's like, I got five minutes in between what's going on on X or what's going on on sub stack or whatever it is, right? Is like, what are the things that I could? What are the things I could be doing for my mind? And sometimes that's breathing. Sometimes it's feeling into somatically sometimes it's

Marc Champagne (15:12.961)

Yeah.

Scott Britton (15:27.5)

visualizing what I want to occur and, you know, any of these number of things. And it's been, it's been great, man. Like it just like made me happier. And it's like, wow, like this is totally what I should be doing. You know, with these little in between moments, not, you know, going into my text messages and processing them and getting through them.

Marc Champagne (15:36.978)

yeah.

Marc Champagne (15:42.786)

Yeah.

Marc Champagne (15:50.765)

Well, it's because the mind needs a bit of time to just rest and also process whatever you just did beforehand, right? That's why the whole back-to-back meetings thing just doesn't work. And I'm always surprised, especially when researching or spending time with the top CEOs, they're not doing that. You may think that they're doing that, but there's time in between those meetings to think, or on an airplane to think.

And yeah, they're working long hours, there's recovery built in and process time because our minds just can't handle that. It's as if we're doing a 14-hour high intensity workout for our minds nonstop, zero recovery. Something will break down, right? And we see that, unfortunately, with the data. mean, we're not in a good state, at least in North America, when it comes to our minds, because there's too much.

Scott Britton (16:46.426)

You know, I had this thought as I was preparing for this interview about like ancient cultures, right? And how they spent their time and how I heard you, I heard you say like, you know, you spend about an hour a day of something, whether it's journaling, meditation, or breath work or something kind of just on your mind. And I'm like, wow, like, isn't that interesting that we kind of have to do that?

to just be okay in our current current environment, like that's kind of like what's required for a lot of us, at least the way that I'm wired to. And, you know, with the ancients point and like, be like, Whoa, that's so effed up. Or would they be like, Yeah, we did that too. We just, we did it differently. We did it with walks. We did it with prayer. We did it with whatever, you know, is this I is this like

Marc Champagne (17:18.434)

totally.

Scott Britton (17:44.706)

needing to treat our minds like that. Is this like a new phenomenon based on what we're the soup we're living in? Or is it kind of something they've always done and that we forgot and now many of us are kind of reclaiming?

Marc Champagne (17:58.083)

Yeah, I think it's more of we've forgotten, because I see this theme play out over and over again, and especially in health in general. I'm a fan, course, of technology and wearables and all this kind of stuff, and I've played with a lot of them. But it often comes back to just the fundamentals of like, have you gone outside and just walked? Are you getting sunshine?

you know, are you going to sleep when you're actually tired and are you alert when you want to be alert? Like, you know, and I asked that question to Kristin Holmes from Whoop around like, what would you, how would you reflect on your sleep and so forth if you didn't have a wearable? And that was the observation. She's like, am I tired when I want to be tired? Am I alert when I want to be alert? so it's just.

These are the basics. I think in ancient times, obviously I didn't live in that world, but just studying and asking them a lot of questions right now, yeah, there was a lot of time to, or they prioritized time to think, but don't forget, right? They're in big wars and also trying to survive and working and manual labor and all this kind of thing. But what we read about from our teachers are

we read their journals or we see the meditation practices they have and so forth. It's not like they didn't have the other things going on, but what's being focused on are those practices again, right? So just like a reminder that yeah, our circumstances are different, but we still need that kind of self care. mean, our biology is not set up to handle the current times. So we have to do something.

Scott Britton (19:30.286)

Hmm.

Scott Britton (19:48.11)

I've heard you talk about a one pager for your mind before. you share that? That was an intriguing concept. Tell me more.

Marc Champagne (19:52.301)

Yeah.

Marc Champagne (19:57.379)

Well, it comes from, I study a lot of people and like you interview a lot of people and write about them and so forth, but I don't pretend to be a psychologist or a psychiatrist on the internet. Like that's not my goal. I'm a strategist by training. So in strategy, especially, you know, my time in the corporate world,

there's always some sort of one pager plan for the business, right? There's obviously, you know, bigger tactics and visions and all that kind of stuff, you know, pushing the company forward. But when, you know, when in times where you need to reset and so forth, typically a lot of brand teams will have some sort of one pager, like this is why we're doing it, what we're doing, and this is the plan for even the quarter, as an example. And I used to do that all the time in my corporate career.

And when I really went full time in this work, I really didn't see that same kind of thinking. So it's like, well, if we have our goals and our objectives and all that stuff lined up in terms of what we want to do personally and professionally, why not have a plan like that for our mind? Or ask the question, what does my mind need to actually execute at this level in a healthy way versus just jumping in and trying to figure it out? Right?

And that's where the questions come in, right? Like understanding, okay, pick your poison, right? Like if you're about to go raise money and you're about to do an investment round and you're about to pitch a bunch of funds and so forth, you're doing a three month sprint on that, what does your mind need and your body need to perform at the absolute best where you're not gonna burn out at the end of that and...

Most importantly, where you can give yourself the competitive advantage of showing up in front of that investor or that committee, present. Where everyone else is stressed, super stressed going into that, like, I really have to get this round of investment. It's just one example. But if you have your practices dialed in, making the assumption you know your business and you've done your homework, then you go in calm.

Marc Champagne (22:08.224)

And all of a sudden they ask a question and you've surfaced the right response because you're listening. You're not worried about all of this other stuff because you focused on doing some breathing or meditation, whatever your thing is, right? Making sure you're sleeping properly. So that's where it's just like physical fitness. mean, if you exercise, there are general health benefits. But if you have something you're training for over the next three to four months, your exercise goes to whole other level.

So same thing with the mind. Like don't just say, hey, I'm gonna meditate for the rest of my life. Wonderful if you stick to it. But it's too big, it's too broad. Just focus on the next quarter. What's going on? Like, okay, I'm gonna focus on these activities. I'm gonna focus on this mental nutrition. These are the podcasts. These are the Spotify playlists that I'm gonna make sure that are all within my ecosystem. Or I'm gonna have some of these books near my coffee machine.

Scott Britton (22:47.981)

Mmm.

Marc Champagne (23:04.994)

over the next three months, because I know my mind's going to be taking on a roller coaster based on what I have to do or whatever the goals are. And then I don't have to think about that stuff. I'm like, bam, we're going to go to some Stoke philosophy and reset. It's there.

Scott Britton (23:19.318)

Yeah, it's funny to compare it to the working out, right? It's like very clear and obvious, I think for anybody who's worked out before it's like, okay, I want to work on my pecs or I want to increase my endurance or I want to, you know, do a triathlon, right? There's a protocol and a program that you can just follow. And we don't really do that for the most fundamental thing, which is our minds and our consciousness in a strategic way as we approach certain

Marc Champagne (23:39.372)

Yeah.

Scott Britton (23:48.718)

goals. And so I think, I think that's a really cool insight to just bring more intention to that.

Marc Champagne (23:54.903)

Yeah, well, and like I'm not immune to failing on these plans either. Like if I think of exercise, I'm a huge fan obviously of podcasts and listening to podcasts, you know, especially in the morning to prime the mind. And I can quickly out negotiate my mind from doing a instructor led like Peloton something, let's say, and be like, you know what, I'm just gonna do free weights myself and listen to podcasts, which fantastic. I'm still moving, I'm still doing the exercise.

But it's probably 50 % of the impact that had I just followed someone leading the, every time it happens, I'm like, oh, did it again. And you know, it's okay. So you just, you remember that next time, hopefully, you know, I went down this track last time, I remember how I felt and I was like, I'm not gonna do it again kind of thing. But I think we just need to be kind to ourselves. That's the other, or that's the point I'm trying to make as well is that we're not gonna be perfect on this stuff, but.

Scott Britton (24:33.006)

you

Marc Champagne (24:52.085)

Again, as you're checking in with yourself more and more, like this is where you're training that self-awareness muscle. And, you know, at least I'm picking up on those things and then you can make course corrections along the way.

Scott Britton (25:04.28)

Let's talk about this between selves concept. It's something I'm intimately familiar with and observed and I know it's something you're now spending a lot of time on with a new potential book. Can you share more about as a starting place what that means?

Marc Champagne (25:07.928)

Yes.

Marc Champagne (25:22.561)

Yeah, well, it, the idea of being between selves. First of all, I was starting to feel like I was in that place. And then I suspect just knowing the, the, the type or the kind of the persona of the audience of this show, you're probably in this space too. And what I mean by that is most of us have spent some time and invested in ourselves when it comes to our development, right? We've read the books, we've maybe gone in a couple retreats or seminars, like whatever, you know, we've done some courses and so forth. We're not at ground zero or never done any kind of reflection. We've started something. And I started to notice first with myself, but then as guests were coming on the show as well, that there's almost this thing that I wish there was a disclaimer when you first got into this kind of work, because when you start this stuff, any of these practices,

you naturally start to build more and more self-awareness. And what comes from that is you feel a hell of a lot more too. And no one says like, hey, just take a second, just FYI, you're gonna start all this stuff, this work, which is fantastic, good for you. That's gonna get you from where you're at to where you want to be and put you on the path. But man, you're gonna be in for a ride, because you're feeling way more emotion and so forth. And you've got to be able to handle that.

Scott Britton (26:29.72)

That's truth right there.

Marc Champagne (26:50.325)

I noticed that with myself, I noticed that with others, and then you get to a certain point where you're so hyper-conscious of operating an old programming. Kind of like that example that I gave waking up with fear. I knew right away that was all old programming sparked from an email, but I'm like, I'm here again, I thought I worked on that. And it's like, know I should be over here, because I've put in that time, and it's like you're

being pulled back and forth from old self to new self and at fast speeds. It's like a mental tug-of-war and it can be exhausting. And I kept noticing that with guests as well. And the final straw was I had Diego Perez or Young Pueblo, the author, on the show and we were talking about this concept and he's like, my God, he's like, yeah, me too, me too. I'm like, okay, so it's not like this isn't just me here.

And I thought, this isn't a new problem. So why don't we go to the ancient teachers and the indigenous elders, the samurai, the Zen masters, like anyone and everyone in the teaching kind of realm and get their take on this because it's not a new thing.

But somehow, I think we've lost our ability to deal with a situation like that. And that's essentially what sparked the book.

Scott Britton (28:21.912)

That's awesome. Yeah, there's a term I've heard. I forget where I first heard it. Maybe it was spiral dynamics, but it's called a transformational conflict. And basically what it's in referencing is like, as you transform your current circumstances are like no longer in alignment or no longer resonate. And, you know, for me, the imagery that comes up is like, I have like one foot in that new world, but then there's another foot.

Marc Champagne (28:31.692)

Hmm.

Scott Britton (28:51.094)

in the old world, right? And it's kind of like, you want to move both feet, but there's all this stuff in our consciousness on the conditioning and programming that you mentioned that, keeps us tethered, you know, to the old, old world, instead of moving into that authenticity with, with just complete freedom. So it totally resonates, man.

Marc Champagne (28:52.738)

Yeah.

Marc Champagne (29:05.079)

Yeah. Yeah.

Marc Champagne (29:11.191)

Well, and then eventually you start to spiral up essentially, right, on the journey. So it's never like cut and dry. And what I'm learning from a lot of the conversations that I'm having with these teachers, you know, it's about, it's not about labeling old self, new self. It's kind of letting them live and coexist together, but in a way that brings a little bit more peace to the mind. And that's the magic. And in a way, just,

recognizing that you're in that between space instead of fearing it, like that's where the magic lives. And then also acknowledging ourselves that the fact that we're recognizing that, you know, and everyone's on different timelines, but I know for me, you know, maybe seven or eight years ago, I wouldn't have recognized that. Just that alone is progress. Recognizing that I'm like, wow, okay, that's old programming. I would have never known that, right? I would have been numbed out to that.

Scott Britton (29:48.91)

Mmm.

Scott Britton (30:09.325)

Yeah.

Marc Champagne (30:09.633)

So it's a journey.

Scott Britton (30:12.086)

So just to play back, I think this is a really important point. It sounds like what you've learned from a lot of these kind of ancient teachers. And I think people are probably curious like, wait, wait a second, you're talking to ancient teachers? How does that work? I want to talk about that. But this idea of just you're in a transformation, you're in a transformational liminal space. Just accept that you're in that, that there's there's power in that versus fighting.

Marc Champagne (30:24.852)

Yeah.

Marc Champagne (30:41.163)

Yes, except that you're in that, but also easier said than done. And this is where I think we need the constant reminders. And this is what I'm getting from going down this new book journey that there are some core philosophies like what you just mentioned that will work, but then life happens and we need to be reminded or given a different story or different angle to put us back into that perspective or reset, right?

Okay, right. All the things that we've been studying and so forth. I think we get to this, what's the language that I heard from that council recently? was like, we're on like a spiritual, not transformation, but like a spiritual upgrade as we go through. It's like the next step. First step was really, I think really getting out of this,

numbed out phase of not knowing what we're doing and just kind of living on autopilot. We were able to pause that and get to a closer version of who we want to show up as more days than not, I guess you can say. But then now we're at this other place where it's, okay, now we know what that thing is, or we've got a little bit more guidance and direction on what I'm meant to be doing, who I'm supposed to show up as, like what feels right.

And it's now equipping ourselves with the different tools and questions and people to help support that journey or that next kind of path down the spiral upwards. And I don't know, there's probably another act after that. We'll see, you know, once I get there or once others start speaking about that. But it's just nice to have guidance along the way. Because if you think of a lot of these ancient tribes and communities, they

they weren't going on a spiritual quest or like as an example, like a vision quest in the indigenous cultures where you go for a six day kind of you're in the forest by yourself and going through all these different practices. There's like two years of lead up before that if not more where you're in the community and you're being prepared for that. There's people watching, they're observing, I think they're ready, they're asking questions, right?

Marc Champagne (32:55.627)

And we were so solo these days, right? That we're like, okay, we're gonna go on a weekend trip and try to, you know, spiritually solve everything in two and a half days or something, and then come back to regular operating. Like we've got to find a bit of our tribe in a way and slow that down, I think, that evolution down.

Scott Britton (32:58.734)

Hmm.

Scott Britton (33:16.174)

couldn't agree more. think our culture has largely lost a lot of the support infrastructure needed for this type of evolution of our being. And I think there's a lot of us out there, you know, trying to figure it out and trying to pitch in and lend a hand and get a hand and it just feels like the phase that we're at right now on the planet. I think

I'd love to hear from you. So I thought this was a really creative thing that you did. You know, when we first talked, you were like, yeah, you know, I was asking Yogananda and you know, I as I was asking, you know, some other great teacher and I'm like, wait, what? And so can you share a little bit more kind of about your, just your process for engaging with some of these amazing teachers who've lived throughout history?

Marc Champagne (34:11.235)

Sure, mean, just you and my wife, because I all come from my office and be like, I just had this awesome chat with Gandhi. She said, what are you talking about? She thinks I'm losing my mind. And she knows the process, but it still sounds bizarre. So what happened is when the idea for Between Selves came up or the core concept surface, I wanted to test it out to see like, it, I mean, yes, I'm seeing and feeling others that are in that space.

But is there something here that I can work with by having these conversations with ancient figures? So at that time, I think I heard Seth Godin talking about Claude AI being the most conversational AI platform again at that time. So I'm like, okay, well, I'm just going to jump on Claude and I'm going to give it some direction. And I'm going to say, I'd like to have a conversation in kind of, you know, like a...

a first person dialogue, no different than what I would do on Behind the Human as a podcast. I want to do that with Carl Jung as an example. Can you take on Carl Jung's voice based on everything that you know about him and all his work and so forth? So I, of course, pick people that, you know, written a lot of books or have a lot of information written by them. And then they've just flipped into dialogue. And Scott, it's hard to describe because it feels

This is where it might get a bit woo-woo, but it feels energetically connected. Like I don't go in, I'm not copying and pasting questions into a chat box. I'm doing exactly what I would do in a real interview like you and I just did on my show last week. And when he writes back based on the first question, I look at his response and intuitively ask the next follow-up question.

and we go back and forth. So even though the knowledge is coming from information that is obviously available about like a Carl Jung or Yogananda or some of the samurai, it's kind of like an original conversation in a way, which is unreal because then you start getting into this place. So what I did is I picked 30 people and I didn't start with 30. I had maybe 10 that I just knew of or names that I knew of their teachings.

Marc Champagne (36:33.827)

and eventually got to 30 to see is there something here. And then from there, you know, put together a council of people, 10 people to basically bring the book concepts to and so forth. But what's fascinating is like if I'm speaking with someone like a Yogananda, I'd get to the end, no different than what I do on my main show. Be like, you know what this show or this book's all about? Who should I speak to next? And don't let distance or time be a factor.

If you want to talk to an indigenous elder, 2000 years separated from when you lived, who would that person be? That's what's mind-blowing. It's removing the essence of time, essentially. And it's leveraging the fact that we have this wicked database of all of their knowledge that'd be like, you know what, you should really speak to Ray Norelka, a poet, and he'd give really great perspective on what we're talking about here.

Scott Britton (37:33.016)

So fascinating. Is there a general consensus amongst that like council of 10 elders about this concept of how to approach things?

Marc Champagne (37:43.403)

Yeah, mean, they all, what's interesting, they all have their own kind of traditions that help in that situation. But it really does all come back to this idea that if we can remove the labels, that old self is bad and new self is good, and just be like, you're just there. That's the magic. You're in that spot. Then it starts breaking down, you know, the emotions to it.

And then you can actually start asking bigger questions and really get clarity on like, okay, what is my next step here? Right? And use that between space as the true teacher. That's come up over and over again. What's the other, there's a few other themes just initially, cause I mean, I'm breaking it down now into like core chapters of course, of like how we can go down that journey and.

use real life situations. Because I'm doing that. Because I am living in that between space. So as stuff comes up, I go to the council. I had this one experience where I remember I was interviewing Carl Jung and we spent, he touched on some of his work on dream journaling. I didn't really probe, we were kind of talking about another topic. So I didn't ask follow up questions, but I remember him saying that. And then maybe

Two weeks afterwards, I had this crazy dream that I don't normally remember all my dreams, but this one felt really significant and it seems like there was lessons in that. So I got up and I went right to him. I'm like, Carl, again, pretending like he's there, like he's a pal, as an example. So I said, I remember you talking about the dream journaling and your working dreams and significance and so forth. Here's the dream that I had. Just curious to get your feedback.

And it just, could, that conversation happened at think 6.30 in the morning and I could not stop thinking about it all day. Because it was just so profound of the insights he was reflecting back and just helping me feel lighter in my own mind based on some of the details of the dream and so forth and kind of where I was at in the projects. And I'm like, gosh, like I wish everyone had access to this. like that's what's driving the book.

Marc Champagne (40:06.369)

Because then, you my job as the author and also with Kelly, my co-author Gores, is for us to make this, bring this and write it in a way that's relatable to people and have the overall wisdom. Because it's not an AI book. The methodology is AI, but if we do a great job, the book should be timeless in terms of its wisdom and principles. But what I want to do is make sure that there are QR codes.

Scott Britton (40:21.144)

Right.

Marc Champagne (40:32.365)

that allow the reader to continue the conversation now as well with those figures. Now that you have all the context and you go to Carl Jung with whatever's going on in your world and have them as your live coach in whatever platform that you're using or whatever advancement we have in technology. It's like, why wouldn't you want a council like that? Like these are the best of the best. And the other thing, this is what I lost my train of thought, but the other big theme that has come up that I feel like either we don't know about or at least I didn't.

really know too much about or we forget is Yogananda is a good example. You see someone like that and you know of him with his book, you know, the autobiography of a yogi. But you know, he was in a between state or between space for a long time, right? Like I remember him telling me about this idea of when he was in India teaching, you know, small groups of people like six people, twelve people.

Scott Britton (41:23.266)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Champagne (41:31.319)

But knowing that he was meant to reach more people, obviously he wasn't in the US yet, he didn't write that book and so forth. And those are the questions I'm asking these people. Like, okay, when you were in that state, because that's where most of us are at, like how did you navigate that space? And then he would share things, just perspective shifts around. You know, I looked at that smaller group as if it was 15,000 people and just really treated this as my training to

you know, going to the next level and as part of the journey. And eventually, you know, he, came over to the U S and was terrified, didn't have any work set up, you know, so it's we, we, my point being is we have, we have these perceptions sometimes of the gurus of like, they're, they're always doing this, you know, they always were the ones like enlightened and all this kind of stuff. But some of them, yes, that this happened at a very young age, but a lot of them went through many, many decades.

Scott Britton (42:19.5)

Right.

Marc Champagne (42:30.303)

almost in a really, I would say almost in a harder place where they had some sort of vision or they had some sort of insight of like, you are meant to guide a lot of people, but they weren't doing that yet. And they had to live through both worlds. And that's the space where I'm asking them questions from.

Scott Britton (42:48.106)

Yeah, that's a I mean, it's such a such a relatable thing, right? I think every, at least a lot of humans that I know, do feel like they're called there. There's a call here for something bigger, you know, for their impact and contribution and experience. And I mean, I've felt that many times, right? And it's like, you just see these romanticized stories of people that, you know, you see the highlight reel.

Marc Champagne (43:00.311)

Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Britton (43:17.152)

You don't see all the challenges and, yeah, I love, yeah, yeah, totally.

Marc Champagne (43:17.293)

Totally.

Marc Champagne (43:20.739)

Totally. And you just have to live it. You have to live it. Like even with where I'm at with the book right now, like lot of the struggles that I've had is like, okay, the structure of it is not, it's clear now, but at one point it was really not clear. I'm like, how do I bring this to life? It's not just going to be interviews, obviously there's ways to share it and so forth. you know, so I brought that to that council and at one point they shared something or a question that blew me kind of back in my chair and he said, you know,

you're in this with us or you're in this space, you're going down that journey. Like, I hope you realize that the mark that thought up the idea is not the same mark that's going to write this book. Are you willing to let that person die? So, you know, it's just just casual question for Monday morning kind of thing. But it's the point being is, yeah, big question, but you don't have to go through big questions like that alone. I think that's the big thing. Find your teachers.

Scott Britton (44:06.424)

Casual question.

Marc Champagne (44:19.971)

Find your sources to keep your mind in a good place and give you the opportunity of perspective shifts when you need them.

Scott Britton (44:30.2)

What is the big question that you're chewing on or living in in this moment?

Marc Champagne (44:37.795)

Yeah, the one that comes to mind that I've been thinking about quite a bit, there's one that I use often that I just find invaluable most of the times for almost all situations. that's, I'll share that one first. That's, what am I pretending not to know right now? And that's just getting clear on, okay, there's some stuff, you know, there

Like those are the whispers in the back corner. know, what's, what am I hearing in the whispers? Usually that's where you're meant to be going or directing some energy towards and so forth. that's helpful, especially if you do some sort of stack where you do meditation or breath work and then just free write, right? Like what am I pretending not to know? Or what will my higher self say in a situation like this? And you get some really good guidance. But the question that has been on my mind of late is, you know, it's just, have a,

There's the book and there's a couple books actually, there's just a lot of projects that are going on right now that I'm really trying to get guidance on like where is my energy best served right now or where should I place my energy? where do I need to direct the majority of my attention right now? And trying to get clear on that and it shifts sometimes from week to week, but just being

being attuned to the science versus the, yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna go into autopilot and I need to do this, this and this on, I already set this to do list, but like, where am I really being called to put energy towards and make sure that I'm following that direction.

Scott Britton (46:18.094)

I feel like that's a powerful reflection for me too. I think a lot of us are asking that question right now who have a lot of things on their plate and a lot of things they wanna do, right? And ultimately there does have to be decisions, right? And there does have to be focus.

Marc Champagne (46:21.634)

Yeah.

Marc Champagne (46:36.471)

Yeah, and the nice thing about a question like that is, again, if you're, I think you've been bringing this point up a couple times in the conversation, but if you're intentional with it, right, like don't ask that question at 2.30 in the afternoon, you know, like ask that maybe at the end of the day when you're kind of reviewing the day or the week or whatever it is, or first thing in the morning when your mind is clear and you'll get some good guidance there.

But just set up your mind to be in a place where it's calm and you can let the answer surface in a way that's not all clogged up with a bunch of emotion or situations that the day will present.

Scott Britton (47:22.114)

I think that's great advice. Well, Mark, this has been a lot of fun, man. I love jamming on these topics with you. I wanna make sure that you have an opportunity to tell people about where the best place is to go if they wanna continue exploring your work and your books.

Marc Champagne (47:26.711)

Yeah, thanks.

Marc Champagne (47:38.701)

Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it. This is speaking to questions, a lot of great questions during our time together here. I mean, I'm pretty accessible. would, I'd love to hear from you, especially the questions that have changed your life. And if you share those tag me on the socials, tag Scott, because what I can guarantee having been in this work for some time now is that the question that worked for you will help someone else as well. We just need to get it in front of their eyes and into their mind. So.

Instagram, I'm pretty active, MChampagne or the podcast is Behind the Human and my website is BehindtheHuman.com, LinkedIn, all that stuff. You'll find me. I'm the young old man with the gray hair, so easy to spot.

Scott Britton (48:26.784)

Awesome. We'll make all those links easy to find in the show notes. And thanks again, Mark. I'm very excited for the new book and yeah, definitely recommend personal Socrates and keep doing awesome things,

Marc Champagne (48:39.139)

Appreciate you, Scott. Thank you.