EvolutionFM Transcript: The MBA Professor Who Teaches Non-Duality (Dr. Srikumar Rao)

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Dr. Srikumar Rao is not your typical business professor. A pioneer who blends timeless spiritual wisdom with modern ambition. He’s the creator of the legendary Creative and Personal Mastery course and a sought-after coach to high-performing leaders.

In this soul-shifting episode, he takes us on a mind-bending journey through the illusions of control, success, and free will. With stories of his guru and lessons from ancient teachings, Dr. Rao challenges our deepest assumptions like the belief that we are the doer of our achievements.

What if your greatest tension stems not from your challenges but from your resistance to how life unfolds? With a rare blend of philosophical depth and real-world insight, he delivers a potent call to put down your suitcases. Those suitcase are burdens we unnecessarily carry, and surrender to the rhythm of the universe. Just when you think you understand his message, he quietly drops a concept so profound it shifts your view of reality itself.

Transcripts may contain a few typos. With many episodes lasting 1+ hour, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!

Scott Britton (00:00.898)

Dr. Rao, it's great to see you.

Srikumar Rao (00:03.494)

Likewise, Scott. And I can't tell you how delighted to be on your podcast.

Scott Britton (00:09.71)

Well, I know it's going to be an interesting conversation. I'm fresh off reading the ancient roots wisdom book, which I'm butchering the title of, but we'll make sure everybody knows it because it's a fantastic book. And I thought it would be fun to kind of start this conversation off with a quote that was really powerful for me. And maybe you can tell a little bit of the backstory behind it. So the quote is,

Srikumar Rao (00:21.46)

You

Scott Britton (00:38.786)

The train is powerful enough to carry the luggage and you. Put your bags down.

Srikumar Rao (00:44.052)

Yes. Let me tell you a backstory behind that. Before I came to America to do my PhD, I visited my guru, who was the Shankaracharya of Sringeri. I told him many things about what I wanted and could you please bless me so I could have that and so on. And he looked at all of that and then he laughingly said, Sri Kumar, the train is big enough and powerful enough to carry you and your suitcases. You don't have to carry them on your head, put them down. And I didn't understand what he meant then, but I understood, understand now and I realized what a profound, profound truth that is. And I now have an extension of that too. If you look at your life, Scott, there are all kinds of things that are bothering you. The likes of everyone who's handling that, my God, I've got to take care of this. And my business is having a terrible time. employees are leaving. I've got technical problems. And why is life so difficult? And all of this stuff is happening.

and I have to grapple with and deal with all of that. And it's so overwhelming. Whereas

Scott Britton (02:06.444)

I know those thoughts quite well.

Srikumar Rao (02:08.978)

Yes, everybody can relate to that. But the reality is called is that life is unfolding. It is unfolding in exactly the way it needs to. And all of this worry, all of this shooting second arrows at yourself that you're doing is totally unnecessary. All you have to do is watch life unfold quietly.

and cope with that. You know, a lot of people tell me I have a tension in my life and I've asked people, what do you have tension in your life? And they have a bunch of reasons. There's financial problems, there are relationship issues, there's career setbacks, there are health complications. And they think that's why they have problems. That's why they have tension. And I say, you're wrong.

There's only one reason, one reason and only one reason you have tension in your life. And the reason is because you've got a very rigid idea of this is the way the universe should unfold. And the universe is paying no attention to what you want and going its own merry way. And you resist it and you resent it. And in that resistance and resentment, you create the tension in your life. And that's the only reason you have tension in your life.

Scott Britton (03:36.482)

Well, I've come to learn that what you're saying is very true. It's our relationship to things that defines the experience versus the experience itself. And

Srikumar Rao (03:47.516)

You got it. Those are the suitcases we pick up. And you don't have to.

Scott Britton (03:52.662)

And Emma, you-

And I wanna talk more about that, and I think what's coming up for me now is, what do you, like this is a nice idea, right? We don't have to worry about anything. Everything's unfolding as it should. It's all good. But what does someone really need to believe to be true to get comfortable with that idea?

Srikumar Rao (04:13.588)

You don't need to believe anything that's true. You just need to examine the idea. So let me tell you the extension to, know, train is big enough and powerful enough to put her to carry you and the suitcases, put down the suitcases. Let me share a very powerful quote from Mark Twain, which is very funny and very profound. He said, I have suffered a great many tragedies in my life, most of which never happened.

Scott Britton (04:45.186)

I can relate to that too.

Srikumar Rao (04:46.44)

which is very funny, but very, very, very true. Now here's the thing about suitcases. When I say, look, know, stuff is happening and your job is not to worry about that and say, my God, what's going to happen? This could happen, that could happen. What will I do? Those are the suitcases you're carrying on. Put it down, watch life unfold and whatever happens, accept it, embrace it gracefully and then say, what do I need to do about that?

Now when I'm in a coaching session or I conduct a workshop, people can understand that and they can put their suitcases down. The problem is that putting your suitcases down is not a once and it's done business because you've got to have it as sneakily going up and picking up the suitcases again.

Scott Britton (05:44.062)

Yeah, I mean, I think we spend, you know, decades of our life achieving, striving, doing more externally oriented towards solving our problems. And this whole idea that you're advocating for is very antithetical to our mental models.

Srikumar Rao (06:00.05)

Completely, it's antithetical to the culture in which you grew up. It's completely contrary to the programming that we've been subject to our entire life. So as I said, I remember this was a very powerful teaching of my guru and I've extended that. It's not enough for you to put the suitcases down. Don't pick them up again. And you pick up the suitcases again without even realizing you've done that. Sometimes you pick them up within seconds of having put them down.

Scott Britton (06:32.186)

So how does, you know, there's a lot of high performers that listen to this show. And I would put myself in that category as well. I've always been someone who wants to do their best and, and, you know, have an impact and contribute. How do we balance the acceptance with that earnest desire to act?

Srikumar Rao (06:36.34)

Mm-hmm.

Srikumar Rao (06:54.664)

There is no need to think that they're in conflict. You don't have to balance it. You can be acting all the time and still not be stressed or strained. And the way you do that, Scott, is to recognize that you by yourself cannot do anything. We're very busy being the doer. I did that. I went to college. I got good grades. I studied hard. I started a company. I had these brilliant ideas.

No, you didn't do any of that. All of that happened. It happened as a result of somebody. If you're a person of faith, you can say Jesus did it, Krishna did it, Allah did it, it doesn't matter. It happened, the universe did it. You were merely the instrument through which it happened. You did not do anything. You, for whatever reason, lack happenstance.

destiny, karma, kismet, you were the instrument through which it happened. Be grateful that you were the instrument, but recognize that you did not do it. And when you do that, you find that you continue acting. But when you're acting, something is acting through you, something is using you as the instrument and you're grateful to be used for the instrument, but you didn't do it.

And when you can anchor yourself in that, you'll find that all of the tension drops away and you're still working, you still go getting, but it's all happening effortlessly, like the functioning of a Swiss watch. It is happening. Your job is to lie back, watch the unfolding and even enjoy your role in the unfolding.

Scott Britton (08:43.854)

So I imagine when you posit this idea to a lot of your previous MBA students, your high performing CEOs that you work with, someone has to ask, well, what does that mean for free will? Don't I have free will?

Srikumar Rao (08:57.876)

It runs all the time, Scott. One of the people who's had the greatest influence on my life is an Indian sage called Ramana Maharshi. And somebody once asked Ramana Maharshi, you know, what is destiny and what is free will and what is foreordained? Are only the big things foreordained? Like say, for example,

the person you're going to marry, the career you're on, or is everything foreordained, including I'll pick up this pen at this particular instant and put it down in this place. And Ramana Maharshi looked at him and said, everything the human body is going to do is preordained at birth, up to and including you're going to pick up this pen at this instant and put it down here. And the guy says, that's what I want free will.

And Bhagwan Ramana Maharshi looked at him and said, you always have the choice of determining whether you are the doer or not.

Scott Britton (10:08.814)

I think I might need to sit with that one for a little bit.

Srikumar Rao (10:10.996)

You have to sit with that one because all our life we go around thinking I did it. It is me, me, me. I got this bright idea. I started this company. And in reality, it happened. The notion that you are the doer is the original cause of all your suffering, because if you are the doer.

then other thoughts come in. Maybe I should have done something else which would have been more profitable or better for me. And then I could have still done something else. You recognize what a Pandora's box it opens up?

Scott Britton (10:56.556)

Yeah, I mean, it can be never ending. And I think, and I think what probably comes up for a lot of people who've been in the immersed in the doership mental habit for so long is a fear of, of nothing happening, nothing getting done, you know, okay, what am I supposed to do? Just sit on my hands all day and hope good things happen.

Srikumar Rao (10:58.974)

Correct.

Srikumar Rao (11:14.228)

Yeah.

Srikumar Rao (11:19.956)

And the short answer is you can't sit on your hands all day because you're not capable of it. Scott, let's agree that the purpose of human existence is to realize your true nature. Your true nature is you're not this body, mind, intellect complex called Scott who runs a podcast and has entrepreneurial ventures and is hard driving and has ambition. That's the role that you're playing. Who you really are is pure spirit.

And the nature of human, the reason, purpose of human existence is to recognize that. That is Jnana, that is Nirvana, that is the Kingdom of Heaven. That is the only time when all sorrow ceases. That is the true goal. Okay?

My coaching philosophy is everything that happens to you is a tool that you use to help you on your journey of awakening. The career that you're in, your marriage, your children, your business. A, all of these are tools given to you by a benevolent universe to help you awaken. Use those tools skillfully.

And as you use those tools skillfully, you'll find that you have much greater impact. Your life is unfolding in a smoother, more joyful, and real joy comes into your life.

Scott Britton (12:58.712)

Yeah, well, I think to your earlier point, this exact question, or this exact theme of needing to be the one that does everything decides right strategizes right all the luggage right like that is what makes joy so so elusive and so hard.

Srikumar Rao (13:17.924)

Absolutely, yes. Those are the suitcases you need to put down. And more important, don't pick them up again unless you put them down.

Scott Britton (13:27.426)

You know, and you know, and also is a good point. mean, I think for all the people listening, if they think about like, okay, what if you actually tried to do nothing? Like, how long could you actually do that? And I don't know about you, but I would probably last a couple hours. And then I'd be like, all right, I'm bored. I'm going to go do something. Right. And so it's kind of an honor. It's kind of a totally unrealistic fear.

Srikumar Rao (13:40.892)

You can do it.

Srikumar Rao (13:47.194)

Yeah.

Srikumar Rao (13:53.486)

You know, Pascal said something which is again profound and very true. He said all of the problems of man are caused by the fact that he is unable to sit quietly in a room by himself.

Scott Britton (14:10.094)

So I love that and I think this is an important message for a lot of people that maybe agree with you. They say, okay, so the purpose of life is my spiritual realization. Cool, got it. I have a job, got it. What is the path for me then? Because theoretically I could see sitting in a room, I know you're practicing Advaita Vandanta,

Srikumar Rao (14:22.292)

Mm-hmm.

Scott Britton (14:38.412)

you know, asking myself, am I all day? Well, that's the purpose. Well, why don't I just go do that? Right. And I would just be curious, like how you would respond to that.

Srikumar Rao (14:40.904)

Mm-hmm.

Srikumar Rao (14:48.872)

You respond to that by saying whatever you're called to be doing, do it. But underneath that, always have in mind the question. Let me read something to you, Scott.

Srikumar Rao (15:14.778)

Unceasing prayer is calling always upon the name of God whether one is conversing or sitting down walking working or eating or occupied with any other activity in all places at all times one should call upon the name of God Simple solution all time have it down. This is not who I am who I am is your spirit. I am That is my nature

Have that going on as an unbroken thread, no matter what you're doing. And you can be running your business, you can be making love to your partner, you can be a good parent, whatever you're doing, wherever you're doing, whenever you're doing, always have that thought running in parallel.

Scott Britton (16:07.298)

I was gonna ask.

Srikumar Rao (16:07.62)

And that requires some skill, but once you get into the habit of that, you'll find, my God, this is so simple, of course, and this is what you're always doing.

Scott Britton (16:17.546)

I was going to ask you, it seems like you had a turning point in your particular life where you started to kind of see the purpose of life evolve beyond getting what you want to this kind of higher level purpose. And then what were the practical things for you that you implemented that really helped you start to embrace this and live this way?

Srikumar Rao (16:39.728) 

I was kind of fortunate because I was a professor in business at a major university. I was a tenured, chaired professor and I was deeply unhappy with what I was doing and I did like it and I felt that I was actually doing a disservice to my students. And I was always attracted to the metaphysical line, the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and Jesus and Buddha and other great masters.

And I said, this is what life is really about. And then I got my bright idea, which is why don't I take all of these teachings and strip them of religious, cultural and other overtones and adapt them so they're acceptable to intelligent people in the post-industrial society. And the thought of doing that made me come alive. So I created that course, moved it to Columbia Business School in 1999, and it exploded. the only course at Columbia which is...

you know, university-wide draw at students from law school, from business school, from the School of International Public Affairs, journalism, teachers' college, all over. And that expanded, and eventually that took over my life. So it wasn't a specific incentive. This was a turning point, but it was a gradual evolution. And now I'm fortunate because, you know...

When I'm coaching someone, I'm not really coaching someone, I'm working on myself. That's a tool. Everything the universe gives you, Scott, is a tool for you to work on yourself. The podcast you run, the guests you interview, they're all tools.

and you use those tools to work on yourself to help you on your journey of awakening.

Scott Britton (18:19.768)

I think.

Scott Britton (18:26.286)

I imagine some people hear that and go, wait a second, so everything's about me? Isn't that selfish?

Srikumar Rao (18:34.644) 

It is not selfish. fact, many people ask Ramana Maharshi, hey, you know, you're sitting here, you're sitting quietly, not doing anything. And remember Ramana Maharshi existed at the time of great turmoil, colonial India. The quest for freedom was going on and there were people out there agitating against British rule. you know, there was the non-cooperation movement. They you're just sitting here and all of these people are going out fighting for freedom. And Ramana Maharshi asked a simple question. And how do you know that my

By my sitting here quietly, I'm not having a bigger, greater impact than all of those people who are out desperately doing something. He didn't say I am, he just asked a question. And the sole point is that there are so many people who said that just being in his presence influenced them so deeply, changed the trajectory of their life. So who's to say which is the better, quote unquote, method?

So sitting by yourself is not selfish because when you achieve that, then the influence you have in the world is immeasurable. Did Jesus Christ have a useless wasted life? Because what the hell did he do? You know, he was a carpenter, gave up carpentry, probably was not very good at it. And he went around, you know, preaching a few things like the Sermon of the Mount and so on. And what did he do?

Scott Britton (20:03.168)

Yeah, I mean, you know,

Srikumar Rao (20:04.69)

What's the impact on the world, my friend?

Scott Britton (20:07.416)

couple things come up for me. mean, I know there's the Maharishi effect, which is the meditation studies that were done in cities and they showed the crime drop. And then I remember earlier my journey, you know, taking a course by Eckhart Tolle called Becoming a Teacher of Presence. And I was really excited. I was like, this is awesome. I'm going to like learn how to be a teacher and like teach people stuff. And his whole point was that your primary offering is your presence.

Srikumar Rao (20:14.414)

Absolutely, yes.

Srikumar Rao (20:37.043)

Yes.

Scott Britton (20:37.13)

It's not what you say. And that kind of just completely surprised me in a funny way.

Srikumar Rao (20:39.858)

Right on!

Srikumar Rao (20:45.616)

Right on. That's the answer to your question, Scott. When you are by yourself and you're anchored in that presence, that is all you need to do. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever come across someone who was so angry, agitated, intermoiled that just being in that person's presence put you on edge?

Scott Britton (21:05.046)

yeah.

Srikumar Rao (21:06.012)

Lots of people, right? Recognize what's happening. We're all always vibrating. This person's vibrations are so strong that they grabbed you by the scruff of your neck and pulled you into their vortex of turmoil.

Your job is to be so firmly anchored in your place of calm that you grab them by their throat and pull them into your vortex of peace and serenity.

And my friend, if you can't do that, that's simply an indication of where you need to do work.

Scott Britton (21:48.014)

Well, I can tell you as a parent, you get a lot of practice with that. And moreover, with children, it's so fascinating. They're so much more responsive to your state. You know, they're such a strong mirror to you. And so you just get an incredible feedback for how is your state actually in those situations, because they will show you. They will calm down or they will get more aggravated.

Srikumar Rao (22:00.723)

Yes.

Srikumar Rao (22:04.222)

Completely.

Srikumar Rao (22:11.368)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Srikumar Rao (22:17.188)

Absolutely, yes, right on!

Scott Britton (22:21.376)

So, I think something that I'm curious to talk a little bit more about is, think there's this idea of like, that still confuses people about, how can me just being acceptance, surrendering, result in higher performance? What is the relationship between this way of living and way of being and it...

supporting my performance and I have my own thoughts on this but I want to hear what you have to say.

Srikumar Rao (22:54.43)

So what happens, by the way, Scott, is most of the time we're so concerned about the outcome.

that that's what we obsess about. Okay, here's how we live a life. I set a goal for myself. I achieved my goal. Life's a blast. I set a goal for myself. I fail. Life sucks. We live a life oscillating between elation and despair. And we spend more time with the despair and the spectrum. And it's a lousy way to live.

Outcome is beyond your control, Scott. It may happen, it may not happen. The journey is the only thing you have. So focus all of your emotional energy in one of the steps that you have to undertake in order to reach the goal that you set for yourself. Forget about the goal once you have set it. The importance of setting a goal is it gives you direction.

Once the direction has been established, forget about it and put all of your emotional energy into one of the actions that I have to undertake in order to reach the goal. You know, people say I want to climb Mount Everest. How much time do you spend on top of Mount Everest? A few minutes to a half hour max. You get up there, your buddy takes a picture of you, your buddy gets up there, you take a picture of him and you're on your way down and you hope you don't get killed in an avalanche. So if you're going to climb Everest,

You better enjoy the weeks and months of acclimatization at Basecamp 1, Basecamp 2, and so on, right? Works the same way in life. When you start doing that, when you start pouring your emotional energy into one of the actions that you have to undertake, you find that the journey becomes pleasant. You enjoy what you're doing.

Srikumar Rao (24:53.448)

But the second part of it, and this is the paradox, when you are genuinely non-attached to the outcome, the probability that you'll reach the outcome you want increases dramatically. John Wooden was perhaps one of the greatest coaches of all time in any sport. He took UCLA to an incredible number of victories in the NCAA and appearances in the final.

And he used to say, whenever I worked with a new team, I never talked about winning or outscoring opponents. I always talked about when it is over, did you do the best that you were capable of? If you did the best you were capable of, the score really doesn't matter. But if you did the best you were capable of, I fancy you'll find the score to your liking.

That's a perfect example and perfect articulation of invest in the process. Do not invest in the outcome.

Scott Britton (25:57.356)

I think there's a lot of people that start to embrace this idea. They're like, okay, cool. I'm going to surrender. The universe is bringing me what I need for my growth. It's even directing me in some ways. And then there's a little bit of a confusion of, okay, well, things don't seem to be going my way. I'm not, I'm kind of beating my head against a wall here. How do I know when to

Srikumar Rao (26:19.614)

Mm-hmm.

Scott Britton (26:27.564)

maybe change direction or to just keep surrendering and accepting and just keep having things not go well.

Srikumar Rao (26:35.892)

That's a perfect example, Scott, of putting down your suitcases and picking them up again. But I get that all the time. You know, when do you know that when you're trying to get something and it seems you're running into obstacle after obstacle, when do you know this universe telling you perhaps this is not the right way, you should go another way? And when do you know it's a sign for you to try harder?

And the answer to that Scott is this is not something outside. It's something between your ears. As you keep running into these obstacles, look at what is the emotional domain you're occupying. Is the emotional domain you're occupying, my God, another obstacle. I can't deal with it anymore. This is too much. Then it's a sign for you to drop and move on.

But if your internal landscape is saying, another obstacle, now what do I have to do to overcome it? And then I have another one, what do I have to do to bypass this one? Then keep going. It's not an external answer, it's internal. You get to decide, you're the only person who knows where you are emotionally.

Scott Britton (27:55.0)

Can you talk a little?

Srikumar Rao (27:55.56)

They look inwards.

Scott Britton (27:57.934)

Can you talk a little bit about mental models, which I think kind of relates to this concept?

Srikumar Rao (28:03.068)

Yeah, sure. A mental model is a notion you have that this is the way the world works. You've got dozens of models. You've got a model for everything. You've got a model for how do I find a job? A model for how do I find better guests for my podcast? A model for how do I bring up my children? You've got dozens of models, maybe hundreds of models. Some of these models may be in conflict with each other and you may or may not be aware of the conflict.

The problem is not that you have mental models. The problem is that you're not aware that you have mental models. You think this is the way the world works. No, this is not the way the world works. This is your model of the way the world works. And the more you believe in that model, the more it seems as if this is in fact the way the world works. And very soon you build a silo around yourself that's so thick you can't break out of it.

But every time you find that you have an unpleasant situation in your life and it persists, not some of the time, not most of the time, every time you have a situation in your life that you find unpleasant and it persists, you're using one or more mental models that are not serving you well. Look into it, examine the mental models that you're holding on.

and you will find that making some change in them, tweaking them, and poof, the problem goes away.

I'll give you an example. So when I was teaching at London Business School, I had a student who got a job in investment banking and the hours were very long. And, you know, his wife was a homemaker and she would get very mad at him because he'd be late for dinner or not show up at all. And in this important occasion, like his son's piano recital and so on, and she'd listen to him for not

Srikumar Rao (30:07.71)

Caring.

And he would get upset because in his view, he was working in a job he did not particularly like, but it was long hours, but it was also very good pay. And that is what enabled them to live the lifestyle they did. And in his mind, the very fact that he was putting up with an unpleasant job to do that meant he was scared for his family. So he resented being told that he doesn't care and they had frequent fights and it was just a downhill situation.

Each one of them had a mental model. Then in my course, I have something called an alternate reality exercise. And then that someone suggested to him, hey, when your wife screams at you and you have a fight because she says you don't care, what she's really saying is, honey, I love you. And I wish you were with me. And he was taken aback. And he said, that doesn't fit well. But I said, try it anyway.

So the next time something like that happened and she started lacing into him rather than react the way he normally did, he said, honey, I know it's so sad, isn't it? Must have been very difficult for you. I'm really sorry, but this happened. And she kind of looked at him suspiciously and what would have been a full evening spite, you know, pitted out after a half hour. And every time something like that happened, you know, he always thought, what she's really saying is I love you and I wish you were with me.

And gradually, you know, the fights went down. The situation was never entirely resolved, but it became manageable. They stopped eating up, you know, beating up on each other, and they managed to make a compromise that worked for both of them. The mental models you have determine the life that you lead, Scott. It's not what happens outside. It's the models you have which you use to tell stories to yourself about what's happening.

Srikumar Rao (32:07.272)

That's what determines your experience of life.

Scott Britton (32:11.798)

Yeah, so just to kind of put this together, we have a preordained existence, right? We're gonna pick up the pen, we're gonna pick up the pen and that's that. And I gotta say the number of times I've had deja vu, which is quite frequently definitely makes me feel like life is preordained in many respects.

Srikumar Rao (32:20.126)

Yep.

Srikumar Rao (32:24.306)

and put it down exactly here, yes.

Scott Britton (32:39.246)

I guess our choice is, is yeah, just the relationship to these things the entire time. And that's where the mental models comes in. What is your opinion of this idea that reality is bringing these circumstances into our experience, really reflecting them so that we become aware of the models.

Srikumar Rao (33:03.912)

That again is a model.

Scott Britton (33:06.126)

So that's a model. It's not necessarily true. That's just one way.

Srikumar Rao (33:08.104)

Yeah, and it's a very powerful model.

Treat everything that comes to you. That's what I advocate in my coaching. Everything that happens to you is a tool that's given to you by a benevolent universe to work on yourself. That is a model. But it's a very powerful model that helps you.

Scott Britton (33:13.826)

It is.

Scott Britton (33:34.478)

So really there's not necessarily a right or wrong model. They're just ones that are more useful than others.

Srikumar Rao (33:42.468)

Exactly correct. As I told my, tell all of my students, don't.

Trouble yourself thinking is this true or false? Get out of these, is this true or false, or bad, right or wrong? Every model I share with you is false. You push hard enough, you penetrate deep enough, the model will crumble. What you don't understand is the models you're holding onto now, which you have not subjected to the same scrutiny, are also equally false.

So the question to ask yourself is not whether this is true or false. The question to ask yourself is, does this work better for me in my life now than the model I'm currently using? If the answer to that is yes, adopt it, tinker with it, make it your own. And if the answer to that is no, drop it. Don't judge it.

Scott Britton (34:39.598)

That's good advice. I think there's a lot of people out there, I mean, this is something that I did, where it's like, okay, I got a lot of mental models, like I need to eat to fill my stomach. I go to bed and that's how I get rested. There's a zillion models, right? What would you recommend as a starting place for people to start to work with these in a way that has the biggest impact?

Srikumar Rao (34:55.165)

Right.

Srikumar Rao (35:06.835)

That is outlined in my book Scott. Are you ready to succeed? People are interested in that I recommend that they get a copy of that and read it but a good place to start is pick any situation in your life that you find of concern to you and It persists the concern persists as I mentioned before in that situation are embedded one or more mental models, which are not serving you well

Identify those mental models, make appropriate changes in them, and how you do that I've outlined in my book. And when you do that, you'll find, boy, the problem just goes away. Poof, disappears. That's when you realize how powerful the concepts are.

Scott Britton (35:54.054)

I liked one of your quotes in the book that I read, was around transformation. The way that it happens is by thinking differently, right? It's not by like doing more, doing the right thing. It's really all kind of comes back to what we're talking about here.

Srikumar Rao (36:04.382)

Mm-hmm.

Srikumar Rao (36:12.826)

Exactly correct. I like to put it this way. You and the universe are not separate from each other. You're intimate partners. You're dancing together. And when you're dancing together in an intimate dance, if you lead differently, your partner has no choice but to follow differently. So you and the universe are in an intricate dance. You're doing the tango. When you lead differently, the universe has no choice but to follow differently.

Try that out and you'll be surprised at the results that happen.

Scott Britton (36:48.62)

Hmm. I like that idea. And there's also this curiosity of like, wait a sec. That makes it seem like I have some influence in all this.

Srikumar Rao (37:00.438)

absolutely, but all of that is also preordained Scott.

Scott Britton (37:06.728)

I see. So the realization of our co-creative power is a preordained understanding.

Srikumar Rao (37:16.06)

Yep, exactly. This is where you really go down the rabbit hole with that.

Scott Britton (37:24.492)

Yeah, yeah. mean, I feel like I'm honestly in the middle of that right now, my own journey. it's a very,

profound inflection point to see the mess that you've made.

Srikumar Rao (37:44.133)

Yes, yes indeed

Scott Britton (37:48.258)

But it's also very empowering to be like, well, it doesn't need to stay a mess.

Srikumar Rao (37:54.291)

Yes.

Scott Britton (37:56.962)

Hmm. When you so I know a lot of your work is coaching and working directly with people in positions of power and influence. What do you think is usually the most challenging thing that they struggle with when it comes to adjusting their lifestyle to some of these principles?

Srikumar Rao (38:19.124)

I think the entire foundational thinking because in the West and increasingly, you know, all over the world, we have the notion that things are happening and we are making things happen. We are the doer.

Srikumar Rao (38:39.344)

And letting go of the sense of doership is very, very, very difficult because it's all built into us, into our egos. Look out for number one. You can do anything. Try harder, try smarter, work better. And we buy into that. But in the sense of striving, in the sense of looking for things, we lose our capacity to be happy.

We live our lives on the if-then model, Scott. And the if-then model says, if this happens, then I will be happy. If I have a bigger house, if I have a private plane, if I have a yacht, if my in-laws moved to Australia, if my kid got into Harvard, if my kid got into Harvard and my neighbor's kids did not make it to any of the ivies.

If this happens, then I will be happy.

Srikumar Rao (39:42.706)

That model is fundamentally flawed. We don't recognize the model is flawed. We simply think we put the wrong thing on the if side of the equation. I thought if I got married, I would be happy and I recognize I married the wrong person. And what I have to do is extricate myself from it with as little financial damage as possible and marry the right person and then I will be happy. That's the Hollywood model.

If then, the model itself is flawed. Right now in you, you have everything that you need to be happy.

Scott Britton (40:11.448)

Seems like it.

Srikumar Rao (40:22.868)

Have you ever been in the presence of something beautiful scene which was so fantastic it took you outside of yourself to a place of great calm and serenity. Maybe a rainbow, a snow-covered mountain, the ocean. Everybody can recall something such place. Have you ever wondered why it was? That is because of that instant you accepted the universe exactly as it was.

Scott Britton (40:40.518)

yeah.

Srikumar Rao (40:51.784)

You didn't say that's a beautiful rainbow, but it's way off to one side. If I could move it 200 yards to the right, it would be so much better. that tree in the foreground, it's got too many crooked branches. Then you give me a chainsaw in 20 minutes and I'll fix it. No, the off-center rainbow was perfect. The tree with the crooked branches was exactly where it was.

And the moment you accepted the universe exactly as it was, you didn't have to do anything to experience the happiness that was a part of you. It came out and overwhelmed you. Your life with all of the problems you have, your life with all of the problems you think you have is every bit as perfect. But you're striving with might and main to reject it. No, no, not this way. This is the way it's got to be.

And in that resistance, you're creating all of the unhappiness in your life.

Scott Britton (41:50.51)

Hmm. What usually gets that insight to click for people?

Srikumar Rao (41:58.216)

When they step back and think, you know, did I ever come to a time when I enjoyed this beauty so much that it took me outside of myself? Did I forget about myself? And when they start exploring internally, they say, yes, yes, this makes sense. This guy is saying it like it is. Most of the time people don't reflect on that because in normal everyday life you don't come across

occasions of people who point this out to you. And you've got to understand that the majority of people, even when they're exposed to that, will brush it off because they're too busy doing something and they don't have time to waste on all this woo-woo nonsense.

Scott Britton (42:45.294)

Right. You know, you can have one of these moments of admiring beauty and nature and feeling perfect. And then there's this impulse to be like, okay, I did that. Now I need to go do the next nature view, right? Or like whatever it is instead of actually just enjoying it. mean, and I, this is a tendency that I deal with, right? It's like,

Srikumar Rao (43:00.09)

Exactly.

Srikumar Rao (43:06.619)

Exactly. Right on.

Srikumar Rao (43:11.976)

Yep. Right on.

Scott Britton (43:14.412)

You know that optimizer, right? Kind of doing as much as they can in as little time as they can to get somewhere. It's just this crazy tendency.

Srikumar Rao (43:21.81)

Right on.

Correct.

Scott Britton (43:27.222)

What are practical steps? Let's say we do notice that, right? Let's say we notice that we're in nature, we're in somewhere beautiful, we don't need to change anything, right? And then that voice starts to come up or that impulse and we catch it, right? What do you typically advise people to do?

Srikumar Rao (43:45.608)

Watch your mental chatter all the time and see how your mental chatter is taking you away.

Srikumar Rao (43:56.175)

all the time.

Scott Britton (43:59.694)

Do you think there's such a thing as good mental chatter versus like helpful versus unhelpful mental chatter or is it all kind of just

Srikumar Rao (44:08.156)

This is the beginning stage because when you initially start working with me, one of the things I do is direct you to watch your mental chatter. And at that time, people are thinking in terms of this is good mental chatter and this is bad mental chatter. Good mental chatter takes you to where you want to go. Bad mental chatter takes you away.

That's a very useful framework in the beginning, but eventually you recognize that it's not a question of good mental chatter or bad mental chatter. It's you have mental chatter at all. That's the problem, but it takes a long time before you get to an understanding of that score.

Scott Britton (44:54.796)

And so you're saying there's a state of being where there is no mental chatter, or is it that there's mental chatter and you're just totally disidentified with it?

Srikumar Rao (45:01.157)

Absolutely, yes.

That is the whole point. are disidentified with mental chatter. Mental chatter is like clouds in the sky. You go for a walk, you look up, there are clouds in the sky. You finish your walk and look up and those clouds are gone and there are other clouds in the sky. Mental chatter is like that. There are clouds in the sky. The problem is not mental chatter. The problem is that you identify with your mental chatter.

And when you identify with your mental chatter, it you by the throat and takes you to all kinds of places you don't want to go.

Scott Britton (45:38.7)

Now here's another question for you. I'm loving this. Is the mental chatter preordained?

Srikumar Rao (45:46.932)

And the short answer to that is absolutely yes. Even the thought that you had, let's have Dr. Rao on my broadcast was preordained. Nothing but nothing happens by chance.

Scott Britton (46:08.342)

It's a funny thought, right, to just be like, yeah, there's this thought that was scheduled for this moment that's here now. Look at that, that's funny.

Srikumar Rao (46:10.887)

Yes.

Srikumar Rao (46:17.756)

Let me share something with you. This comes from the film, Lawrence of Arabia, which is a great film, by the way, if you haven't seen it or if your audience hasn't seen it, rent it from Amazon and watch it. So what happens in Lawrence in Arabia is that there is a sequence where they're traveling the desert at night. And when the morning comes along, Lawrence notices that one of his team members has fallen off somewhere and the camel is the saddle of the camel is empty.

So says, God, we've got to go back and find this person. And everybody tells him, no, no, you can't do that. You don't know where he is and he's probably dead now anyway. There's nothing you can do about it. It is written. So Lawrence gets disgusted and he goes back himself with a spare camel and he comes back in the day and the man is strapped to the saddle and he's dehydrated, but he's going to live. And Lawrence looks at them and says, nothing is written.

And they look at him say, yeah, yeah, for you, nothing is written. But what if everything is written, including the fact that he would go back and find the man? Right. So the short answer, Scott, and I would like all of your listeners to know this, is that this is a model. OK, can I prove that everything is preordained? I can.

Scott Britton (47:23.948)

Right, right.

Yeah.

Srikumar Rao (47:42.782)

Can you prove that mapping is preordained? You can't.

So why not use the mental model that serves you better?

Scott Britton (47:57.09)

Yeah, I mean, I can definitely see that believing everything is preordained would quiet this need to control and change. And in that there would be a lot more peacefulness.

Srikumar Rao (48:07.134)

Correct.

Srikumar Rao (48:11.142)

And remember what I said earlier, if you believe that you are the doer, that automatically raises a Pandora's box worth of questions. If you are the doer, maybe you should be doing something else and that would be better.

And maybe you should be doing something still others. You're always second guessing yourself. You're beating up on yourself.

Scott Britton (48:37.544)

One question that I wanted to ask, I know the title of your infamous course is Creative and Personal Mastery. How does all the things we've been talking about relate to creativity?

Srikumar Rao (48:50.932)

Creativity is something that I have a different take on. I believe that when you're truly passionately immersed in something, you are creative automatically by default.

I'm trying to think of the name. The founder of the company Kyocera, Inamori, he used to say that when a researcher is so passionately absorbed in what he does, the sweat vaporizes and goes up into the skies and then it falls back as rain.

he will find his problem solved. So creativity automatically happens when you're passionately involved in something and all of your faculties are...

Srikumar Rao (49:53.6)

utilized in solving this problem and then you find that you're creative beyond anything that you ever imagined.

Scott Britton (50:07.382)

What comes up for me is, I know a big theme for you is this alignment, right? Alignment to our inner experience. certainly been mind that when I am in alignment, when I am doing the things that make me feel alive, that is when everything flows.

Srikumar Rao (50:15.069)

Yes.

Srikumar Rao (50:27.22)

Exactly correct. And that's when you find that you put in little effort, but great results happen.

Scott Britton (50:35.65)

Well, Dr. Rao, I know we're coming to an end here. Maybe the last question is, what are you excited about? What do you want to see in the world and what excites you right now?

Srikumar Rao (50:49.394)

What excites me right now is the fact that, you know, for whatever reason, I'm in a place where I get to help a lot of people with their spiritual journey. And I want to emphasize that I don't help them. Help comes through them. know, thousands of people have said, your course changed my life. And I say, thank you. But the reality is that their lives were changed by the teachings.

And I draw my teachings from those great masters, those are the source. So obviously they will change lives. It's not mine. I'm the FedEx guy. I deliver the package, but the package doesn't come from me. It comes from somewhere else. I like to think that I am a good FedEx guy, but I'm always conscious of the fact that the teachings are the things that are affecting people's lives for the better.

And I'm very grateful to be the instrument through which it happens. But I never think it's mine because it isn't.

And the more lives I can alter, hey, the better. I'll just try to be a better FedEx guy every day.

Scott Britton (52:03.886)

Well, I think you're doing a good job. FedEx is great when you're the FedEx guy, in my opinion. And I just want to say thanks so much for coming on. I also want to give you the opportunity, I know some people listening will be excited to learn more about your work, your books, different ways that they can kind of engage. Please share more.

Srikumar Rao (52:26.246)

Okay, if they want to learn more about me, the best way is to go to my website, is www.theraoinstitute.com. And if they go there and register, they'll get my blog, they'll get information about my programs. They can email me directly if they're interested in coaching. And my email is srikumar.rao at the raoinstitute.com.

If you go to YouTube and put my name in the search engine, dozens of videos will pop up. They can listen to a watch, whichever one they like. My podcast is on Spotify and Apple, so they can listen to that.

Scott Britton (53:12.0)

Awesome. Well, lots of good surface area for people to check out and we'll make sure to link all those out so it's easy to get to in the show notes. And just want to say thanks again, Dr. Rell. It's been a real pleasure and I guess this is the preordained part of the episode where we depart.

Srikumar Rao (53:17.191)

Yes.

Srikumar Rao (53:31.954)

We depart and let me tell you the pleasure is all mine, Scott. It was real, real fun interacting with you. And I suspect that this is the start of a long relationship and I'm quite happy about that. Thank you.

Scott Britton (53:46.254)

Bye now everyone.

Srikumar Rao (53:49.428)

Ciao.